D&D General For those that find Alignment useful, what does "Lawful" mean to you

[Maxperson]

An example of a Chaotic code is that of an inspirer who helps each individual discover ones own bliss and talents, and helps to become the best version of oneself.

That's not a chaotic code. That's a code that helps other individuals. For the one with the code, that code is lawful. It's okay for a lawful person to help other be better individuals. That purpose does not prevent you from being lawful. Hell, he could be helping them become the best versions of themselves, because doing so makes society better and stronger.

 

[Maxperson]

IMHO, Honour Code does not equal the Law. The Law is what society imposes and traditionally hands down. Honour can be traditional (indeed in the ideology of the Christian middle ages or of Biblical heroes, it was), but the Honour among thieves or of individualists is just a personally invented arbitrary self-justification.
Lawful means following and defending society's (or the Lawful Good gods') Laws.

That's one way to interpret it, yes. D&D doesn't limit lawful like that, though.

 

[Yaarel]

That's not a chaotic code. That's a code that helps other individuals. For the one with the code, that code is lawful. It's okay for a lawful person to help other be better individuals. That purpose does not prevent you from being lawful. Hell, he could be helping them become the best versions of themselves, because doing so makes society better and stronger.

To help other individuals develop their own personal conscience and get in touch with their own instincts, to become an authentic self, is Chaotic.

 

[Maxperson]

To help other individuals develop their own personal conscience and get in touch with their own instincts, to become an authentic self, is Chaotic.

Not in default D&D.

 

[Yaarel]

In the 5e Players Handbook.

Lawful Good "can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society".

Lawful is all about the group identity (society).

Likewise, Lawful Neutral is also about group identity whether the social expectations are in the form of required law, conformity to tradition, or an ideal code carried out by individual volunteers. Compare religious ideals whose adherance follows a code personally that isnt forced on other members of society.

Lawful Evil exploits the "code of tradition, loyalty, order", again using the term "code" to mean the expectations of a group.

Lawful = group

 

[CreamCloud0]

To help other individuals develop their own personal conscience and get in touch with their own instincts, to become an authentic self, is Chaotic.

Individuality is not inherently chaotic, you can be an individual and still follow a set of rules-either societal ones or personally chosen, putting individuality before laws is more likely to be evil than anything else IMO

Individuality by itself is a neutral (with a small n, not the alignment) factor.

 

[Yaarel]

Individuality is not inherently chaotic, you can be an individual and still follow a set of rules-either societal ones or personally chosen, putting individuality before laws is more likely to be evil than anything else

Individuality by itself is a neutral (with a small n, not the alignment) factor.

Chaotic = individual

The 5e Players Handbook says.

"Chaotic Good ... act as their (individual) conscience dictates with little regard for what others (of a group) expect."

"Chaotic Neutral ... follow their (individual) whims, holding their personal (individual) freedom above all else."

In 5e:

Chaotic = individual

Lawful = group

 

[Minigiant]

Lawful is less "group" and more "not just you"

You can be in a chaotic group or be a lawful person following the codes and laws made by one person (who isn't yourself).

 

[Maxperson]

In the 5e Players Handbook.

Lawful Good "can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society".

Lawful is all about the group identity (society).

How can you seriously quote Lawful GOOD and then try to limit it to lawful, especially since the LAWFUL only alignment right under it says very clearly...

"Lawful neutral (LN) individuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes."

C'mon man.

Likewise, Lawful Neutral is also about group identity whether the social expectations are in the form of required law, conformity to tradition, or an ideal code carried out by individual volunteers. Compare religious ideals whose adherance follows a code personally that isnt forced on other members of society.

This is wrong. LN CAN be about group identity, but it is written very explicitly not to require it and to allow individuals to be lawful when acting in accordance with personal codes. They very deliberately used "or" and not "and" when talking about personal codes, separating out that individualistic way to be lawful from the group stuff.

Lawful Evil exploits the "code of tradition, loyalty, order", again using the term "code" to mean the expectations of a group.

No. This is you projecting code to mean something that it is explicitly written not to mean. You WANT it to all mean group think, but Lawful in D&D hasn't been only group think since before 3e.

 

[Maxperson]

Lawful is less "group" and more "not just you"

It CAN be that if you want it to for your game. It doesn't mean that as the default in D&D, though. Since 3e came out it can in fact be just you. Making lawful be for multiple people(groups) only is a home brew change to the game.