D&D General For those that find Alignment useful, what does "Lawful" mean to you

[Voadam]

And of course the chaotic fey are well known to be unable to break their word and having to stick to their contracts!

That is some stories about some specific fey.

I am unaware of that applying to satyrs or nymphs or dryads for example to name some common D&D fey. I am not sure core D&D fey have ever specified much on such binding rules or contracts. Usually it is 3rd party D&D sourcebooks that go into such and usually without specifics.

I do not think the vampire supernatural restriction on entering houses uninvited is an indication of lawful alignment or prohibits them from being chaotic under the various D&D alignment systems.

However if you wanted to portray fey as lawful, the supernatural rules and contracts and fey courts could be fey thematic roleplay hooks for a DM to emphasize from that perspective.

 

[Flamestrike]

That seems trivially easy to conceive.

Media samurai follow a warrior code of Bushido. A Samurai can be thoughtful and cautiously reserved or rash and impulsive and still be a samurai following their code.

How can one be said to be following a code, if one is acting rashly and impulsively?

You cant be doing both (unless your code is 'act rashly and impulsively').

 

[Flamestrike]

And if you insist, I think MCU Thor is somewhat like that, though not as extreme example as one could imagine.

MCU Thor is clearly Chaotic. He is reckless, impulsive, doesn't follow orders, is depicted as getting expelled, stripped of his powers, told off or otherwise reigned in by his dad, going off and getting drunk, giving up responsibilities, leading assaults against other realms against orders, and literally has no code (at all) to speak of.

In fact his entire arc in the first (and most subsequent movies to a lesser extent) is his lack of responsibility, slackness, recklessness and impulsiveness etc.

There is next to nothing 'Lawful' about MCU Thor.

Contrast him to MCU Captain America for a (Lawful) character that is never reckless, impulsive, neglectful in his duty, or ignores orders and always views the world (and acts) through and guided by the lens of his personal code.

Batman also. Ditto the Punisher. Ditto Judge Dredd.

DCU Aquaman is MCU Thors' equivalent (in that he's CG) and he can be contrasted to Superman and Batman (both LG, with Batman having Neutral tendencies) and Wonder Woman and the Flash (NG), with Wonder Woman having Lawful tendencies, and the Flash having Chaotic ones.

 

[Yaarel]

A Fey can create new realities moving foreward, but one cannot undo what was said in the past. A fate that was spoken in the past is already a fact of reality. But a Fey can create new realities that remedy it, subvert it, or even turn the previous wording on its head to achieve the opposite result. The Fey cant change the past but can alter the future.

The concept that words cause reality exists in many different cultures.

In Norse tradition, the Nornir are roughly equivalent to the fates. There is a story where the Nornir gathered at the birth of a hero of a saga. One Nornir said, The infant will die by the time that candle burns out. Originally the oracle means, the child will die within the next two hours. But an other Nornir stepped in to save the child, and spoke a second oracle. She snuffed out the flame of the candle, and said, This one will continue to live for as long as this candle exists. The hero grew up and kept the candle safe, living for (IIRC) centuries. When he achieved everything he sought to achieve, he lit the candle himself, in order to move on into the afterlife.

These "oracles" or "fates" or "oaths" are the essence of reality itself. The manipulation of it is magic itself.

Old school DMs who are familiar with the earlier Wish spell are familiar with how to adjudicate the wording of a Wish. A DM can interpret the Wish generously or punishingly, but either way it is the wording itself that matters. The same judicial skills apply to any Fey when speaking, and especially when speaking solemnly.

In sum, the oaths of a Fey cannot undo the past, but can reinvent the future.



Regarding alignment. The Norse Nornir feel True Neutral. They assign fates for individuals and groups alike, whatever is expedient toward the inscrutible plans for the future.

But. When D&D assigns this magic of oaths to Chaotic Good, it means these ones weild this magic individualistically and ultimately for a Good cause. The Chaotic Good Fey are about the reality of an individuals fate.

 

[Yaarel]

MCU Thor is clearly Chaotic. He is reckless, impulsive, doesn't follow orders, is depicted as getting expelled, stripped of his powers, told off or otherwise reigned in by his dad, going off and getting drunk, giving up responsibilities, leading assaults against other realms against orders, and literally has no code (at all) to speak of.

In fact his entire arc in the first (and most subsequent movies to a lesser extent) is his lack of responsibility, slackness, recklessness and impulsiveness etc.

There is next to nothing 'Lawful' about MCU Thor.

Contrast him to MCU Captain America for a (Lawful) character that is never reckless, impulsive, neglectful in his duty, or ignores orders and always views the world (and acts) through and guided by the lens of his personal code.

Batman also. Ditto the Punisher. Ditto Judge Dredd.

DCU Aquaman is MCU Thors' equivalent (in that he's CG) and he can be contrasted to Superman and Batman (both LG, with Batman having Neutral tendencies) and Wonder Woman and the Flash (NG), with Wonder Woman having Lawful tendencies, and the Flash having Chaotic ones.

It is probably fair to say, both Norse Tor and MCU Thor are impulsive and reckless. It is a personality trait.

But Tor is about the wellbeing of the cosmos and humanity, whence Lawful, while Thor is about his individual conscience and personal interest, whence Chaotic.

 

[Voadam]

How can one be said to be following a code, if one is acting rashly and impulsively?

Because acting impulsively is normally orthogonal to following a code.

Take the media samurai portrayal with a Bushido code.

A samurai could react rashly to being provoked and enter a duel keeping with his honor code. A samurai leader could take the bait in a war and rashly react to an attack leading his forces into a trap.

Rash and impulsive actions can be done without violating the code of Bushido.

You cant be doing both (unless your code is 'act rashly and impulsively').

I think it is the other way around. You can be rash and impulsive and not violate a code unless the code is to actively be deliberate and to not act rashly or impulsively.

 

[Voadam]

Why would you peg Thor as LG?

There is a strain of Norse Mythology interpretation that posits the Aesir Gods are forces of Law struggling against the Chaos of the Giants.

Thor as an Aesir would be on the side of Cosmic LAW.

One interesting thing along these lines that I read is that the doom of Ragnarok happens in part because the Aesir keep breaking their word (the binding of Fenris in particular) weakening their role as forces of Law that stand against Chaos.

 

[Yaarel]

There is a strain of Norse Mythology interpretation that posits the Aesir Gods are forces of Law struggling against the Chaos of the Giants.

Thor as an Aesir would be on the side of Cosmic LAW.

One interesting thing along these lines that I read is that the doom of Ragnarok happens in part because the Aesir keep breaking their word (the binding of Fenris in particular) weakening their role as forces of Law that stand against Chaos.

Regarding the Lawful alignment, that is spot on.

Regarding the cosmology, it feels a bit too Greco-Roman and less Nordic.

In the Nordic cosmologies, such as the Norse one, these personas are all vættir "beings", features of nature with moreorless equal standing. However, some parts of nature are hospitable to human life and other parts of nature are deadly to human life. The goð (singular and plural) are the ones who are conducive to humans, and are literally "invoked" by humans to acknowledge their constructive neighborliness. Forming a personal friendship with one of the vættir is possible, but mostly it is about being polite toward each other.


The persona of the sky, or more specifically the astronomical calendar in use for agriculture, is Óðinn, who is central to Denmark but is peripheral to Norway. The Norwegians view him as treacherous, dishonest and backstabbing. The goal of Óðinn is strictly self-preservation, for himself and his group, almost at any price. He strikes me as True Neutral, utilizing both Lawful Þórr and Chaotic Loki as part of his scheming. There is even a reference to the Nornir being the salvation of humanity, which is an odd thing to say about the Nornir. But apparently the fate that destroys these personas is somehow ultimately a benefit to humanity. In any case, the Norwegians view Þórr as the Lawful reliable, even heroic, aspect of this cosmic natural order.

In general, the best way to relate to these personas is like relating to troll: some troll are helpful some troll are cruel, and one does the best one can to deal constructively with them.

 

[Flamestrike]

You can be rash and impulsive and not violate a code unless the code is to actively be deliberate and to not act rashly or impulsively.

No, that's clearly not the case because the definition of impulsive is 'Acting without forethought.'

acting or done without forethought. - Google Search

How can you be said to be following a code (other than by sheer co-incidence) if you're acting without any forethought?

Consider:

1) A Lawful person has their actions dictated by a code of honor or conduct that they hold dear. Before acting the action must conform to their code.

2) A person acting impulsively or rashly acts without forethought.

Those two statements are not 'at right angles' to each other, they're literally incompatible with each other.

 

[Flamestrike]

But Tor is about the wellbeing of the cosmos and humanity, whence Lawful

Actually that likely makes him Good, not Lawful.