D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Minigiant]

Or, alternatively, we can give the psion unmatched ability with the spells that overlap with what we'd expect a psion to do. We could for example do this by making sure that psions had no verbal, somatic, or material components for their psionic abilities, just needing to think and exert themselves for the magic to work and making them better at these spells than any wizard. This would have the effect of not restricting the wizard but meaning that the wizard needed gestures and incantations to imitate what the psion could do naturally.

We could then give them the ability to tweak their psychic powers that no wizard could match. And then we could give the the flexibility to reallocate their spell slots for these powers, changing two first level spells into a second level spell or vise-versa and effectively making them a power point class.

All of which makes the psion simply better with psionics than the wizard is even if the wizard has spells that can imitate the psion.

The thing about this is that literally everything I have just suggested is what the Aberrant Mind sorcerer already does.

Psionics are in 5e and there is no need to add them again (except "Psionic Gifts" for Dark Sun alongside "supernatural gifts" and "dark gifts"). The Sorcerer is a psion. And better implemented than in most editions; it's a power point using class that is actually better at psionics than the wizard. The soulknife rogue blows the 3.5 soulknife out of the water (not that that's hard) while feeling like a stealthy psionic spy/assassin. The Psi Warrior is a Psychic Warrior and, like the Soulknife, they do it in a way that feels different from any spell slot caster (unlike the 3.5 Psychic Warrior who was Yet Another Gish).

5e has simply the best psychic rules of any edition of D&D - it doesn't have wonky classes or try to bury you in a whole pile of not!spells that are used to justify the existence of these classes, but does have almost all the actual psionic archetypes covered. And from what I can tell, remembering the old rules, the 5e psionics rules have been a spectacular success - and are both far less complained about and far less often banned than the psionics rules in any other edition.

Yeah but the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer is still a Sorcerer.

And the 5e Sorcerer base class is a terribly designed class that the designers botched due either apathy or fan pressure.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah but the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer is still a Sorcerer.

And the 5e Sorcerer base class is a terribly designed class that the designers botched due either apathy or fan pressure.

The 5e sorcerer is a botched class - but not badly botched enough that the aberrant mind can't fix it as a part of the subclass. There are two basic reasons the question the 5e sorcerer leaves is "why not play a wizard?" and the aberrant mind (and clockwork soul) sorcerer fixes both:

• A lack of spells known leading to an absurd lack of flexibility; a sorcerer (before level 12) knows level +1 spells; a wizard can prepare Int+level spells. (And can then use other spells as rituals).
  • The Aberrant Mind sorcerer gives you two extra spells known per spell level (1-5) so a level 9 sorcerer should know 20 non-cantrip spells not 10
• Their spell list is almost a subset of the wizard spell list (with only eight exceptions), Whatever a sorcerer can cast (other mostly than Enhance Ability) so can a wizard.
  • The Aberrant Mind sorcerer gives you some nice non-wizard spells known including Dissonant Whispers from the bard list, Calm Emotions from the Cleric, and Hunger of Hadar from the warlock.
  • It also lets you pick divination and enchantment spells from the sorcerer, wizard, or warlock lists. This isn't much bigger than the wizard list, but Enthrall is very thematic and Hex is great. (And their clockwork soul compatriots get Armour of Agathys)

So while I agree with the point about the sorcerer in general I can't agree with the problems of the sorcerer being present in the aberrant mind (or the clockwork soul).

 

[Steampunkette]

So... here's where I wound up on it:

A lot of people don't care whether Psionics and Magic are fungible and think it's not a big deal if magic and psionics mix.

A lot of people -do- care whether Psionics and Magic are fungible and think it is a big deal if magic and psionics mix.

You will not please either group by making Psionics and Magic into the same thing, 'cause the first group doesn't care and the second group will feel let down.

You will please one group by making Psionics different from magic, because the first group continues to not care but the second group cares a lot.

So just do it. Make Psionics different to make some people happy, rather than making psionics into "Just Magic" and making no one happy.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So... here's where I wound up on it:

A lot of people don't care whether Psionics and Magic are fungible and think it's not a big deal if magic and psionics mix.

A lot of people -do- care whether Psionics and Magic are fungible and think it is a big deal if magic and psionics mix.

A number of people do care whether Psionics and Magic are fungible and think it's a big deal if they don't mix. They just don't post much on threads about psionics. They don't particularly care about what other people are doing as long as they have their fun - at least they don't compare until special snowflake characters start overshadowing the game in a way that makes everyone else's life harder. As it will do to have to look up every supernatural ability to see if it's a spell or a psychic power.

This group includes GMs who don't want their lives made harder, and includes a lot of players who don't want the game to get more complex. A group that represents the target market of D&D but not the target market of ENWorld.

You will not please either group by making Psionics and Magic into the same thing, 'cause the first group doesn't care and the second group will feel let down.

You will please one group by making Psionics different from magic, because the first group continues to not care but the second group cares a lot.

You will also displease a serious group of fairly laisssez-faire GMs and fairly harried players who want things like spells to be treated with spell rules. And who will have their games made worse if the game gets more arbitrarily complex as everyone needs to remember what's a spell and what's a power - unless psychic powers don't look like spells.

So just do it. Make Psionics different to make some people happy, rather than making psionics into "Just Magic" and making no one happy.

Which is why 5e did what it did. If you want psion style spell-slot style psionics you can play the Aberrant Mind and put up with psionics being magic style. If on the other hand you want abilities rather than pseudo-spellcasting you can play a Soulknife or Psi Warrior which don't have magic as spells.

5e already has psionics and it's managed the best of both worlds here. If you want a laundry list of spell style abilities that uses the classic "if it looks like a spell it is a spell" transparency then you can. You can play your psion (it's an Aberrant Mind). If you just want psychic powers you've other subclasses - and the ones with psychic dice don't interact with the spell system.

When I google Reddit for psionics of the top three threads two are about how psionics are hated and one's asking what the big deal is and aren't they just spellcasters? People do not want overbearing psionic systems any more than they want the 1e attack and defence modes back.

 

[Mind of tempest]

A number of people do care whether Psionics and Magic are fungible and think it's a big deal if they don't mix. They just don't post much on threads about psionics. They don't particularly care about what other people are doing as long as they have their fun - at least they don't compare until special snowflake characters start overshadowing the game in a way that makes everyone else's life harder. As it will do to have to look up every supernatural ability to see if it's a spell or a psychic power.

This group includes GMs who don't want their lives made harder, and includes a lot of players who don't want the game to get more complex. A group that represents the target market of D&D but not the target market of ENWorld.

You will also displease a serious group of fairly laisssez-faire GMs and fairly harried players who want things like spells to be treated with spell rules. And who will have their games made worse if the game gets more arbitrarily complex as everyone needs to remember what's a spell and what's a power - unless psychic powers don't look like spells.

Which is why 5e did what it did. If you want psion style spell-slot style psionics you can play the Aberrant Mind and put up with psionics being magic style. If on the other hand you want abilities rather than pseudo-spellcasting you can play a Soulknife or Psi Warrior which don't have magic as spells.

5e already has psionics and it's managed the best of both worlds here. If you want a laundry list of spell style abilities that uses the classic "if it looks like a spell it is a spell" transparency then you can. You can play your psion (it's an Aberrant Mind). If you just want psychic powers you've other subclasses - and the ones with psychic dice don't interact with the spell system.

When I google Reddit for psionics of the top three threads two are about how psionics are hated and one's asking what the big deal is and aren't they just spellcasters? People do not want overbearing psionic systems any more than they want the 1e attack and defence modes back.

would not just letting abjurers effect psioninc fix most of their complaints?

 

[Staffan]

The 5e sorcerer is a botched class - but not badly botched enough that the aberrant mind can't fix it as a part of the subclass. There are two basic reasons the question the 5e sorcerer leaves is "why not play a wizard?" and the aberrant mind (and clockwork soul) sorcerer fixes both:

• A lack of spells known leading to an absurd lack of flexibility; a sorcerer (before level 12) knows level +1 spells; a wizard can prepareInt+level spells. (And can then use other spells as rituals).
  • The Aberrant Mind sorcerer gives you two extra spells known per spell level (1-5) so a level 9 sorcerer should know 20 non-cantrip spells not 10

And those spells include things like hunger of Hadar, Evard's black tentacles, and summon aberration. Their later abilities include gaining mucus-covered skin or cilia, and warping space. That, plus their non-component use is limited to spells cast purely with sorcery points, which makes it a highly limited ability.

There's way too much aberration in the Aberrant Mind for it to what I want in a psionic class (same thing with the Great Old One warlock). Just because some aberrations use psionics it doesn't mean that psionics use should be aberration-based. I'm fine with aberration-based things being expressed through psionics, but it should not be the psionic default.

 

[Minigiant]

The 5e sorcerer is a botched class - but not badly botched enough that the aberrant mind can't fix it as a part of the subclass. There are two basic reasons the question the 5e sorcerer leaves is "why not play a wizard?" and the aberrant mind (and clockwork soul) sorcerer fixes both:

• A lack of spells known leading to an absurd lack of flexibility; a sorcerer (before level 12) knows level +1 spells; a wizard can prepareInt+level spells. (And can then use other spells as rituals).
  • The Aberrant Mind sorcerer gives you two extra spells known per spell level (1-5) so a level 9 sorcerer should know 20 non-cantrip spells not 10
• Their spell list is almost a subset of the wizard spell list (with only eight exceptions), Whatever a sorcerer can cast (other mostly than Enhance Ability) so can a wizard.
  • The Aberrant Mind sorcerer gives you some nice non-wizard spells known including Dissonant Whispers from the bard list, Calm Emotions from the Cleric, and Hunger of Hadar from the warlock.
  • It also lets you pick divination and enchantment spells from the sorcerer, wizard, or warlock lists. This isn't much bigger than the wizard list, but Enthrall is very thematic and Hex is great. (And their clockwork soul compatriots get Armour of Agathys)

So while I agree with the point about the sorcerer in general I can't agree with the problems of the sorcerer being present in the aberrant mind (or the clockwork soul).

The aberrant mind doesn't fix the low number of sorcery points to make all spells psionic and low number of meta magic.

Fix via subclass is not valid design.

 

[jgsugden]

To reiterate something said a few times that seems to be ignored a lot in this thread:

* You can do psionics as just another form of magic, and in that case it doesn't have a distinct and important place in a setting. The aberrant mind sorcerer is an example of such an implementation.

* However, there is ample design space and benefit to creating a psionic system (or just revising prior versions) that is not just a paint of coat on a wizard/sorcerer body. While the psionic PC may not fit, thematically, into all campaigns (as the artificer and warlock do not fit into all settings), but for those that do have space for it to fit, it can be a HUGE part of the setting. Those of us that have run settings for decades and built psionics into the DNA of our setting are disappointed by the delay in implementing rules for them, and in the case of 5E, many of us are extremely frustrated that we've been waiting 7 to 9 years to see something official.

Here are a couple spots earlier in this thread where I address how I use psionics historically, and why dropping them on a sorcerer build did not serve my setting well.

D&D General - What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

They’re just different spells. They’re spells, but from a different source and maybe a lil weird, but not really that special. Near as I can tell. I am sure I’m missing something because every time Dark Sun comes up there’s a grip ton of hand wringing about getting Psionics right. It just...

www.enworld.org

D&D General - What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

And since anyone apparently can get magic powers from some shady guy offering pacts in a dark alley, they're not even all that special in-universe either. I've played with many DMs who have Adventuring Guilds in various cities. Now I'm half tempted to install Pact Offices, where...

www.enworld.org

 

[James Gasik]

Yes, if the base class has issues, why are we trying to patch it with a subclass? And what about the subclasses that preceded it? Oh right, WotC doesn't seem to care as much about that. Got to keep the PHB 'evergreen', don't you now. Maybe you'll get a decent Beastmaster or Wild Magic Sorcerer in 2024!

Ranting aside, there are seven kinds of D&D players with regards to psionics (yes, I know, this is overly generalizing and someone is bound to tell me they represent a super rare EIGHTH KIND of player before long, but bear with me.)

Those who have fond, nostalgic memories of psionics being strange, bizarre, pulp-inspired powers that confounded even Wizards- these players love Empire of the Petal Throne and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, and think Dark Sun was blast!

Those who like vast and flavorful options, and don't care what new systems they bring to the game. Give me Binders, Archivists, and Artificers, or give me death!

Those who enjoyed breaking the game with badly thought-out mechanics for Psionics, and fast talked their way into doing things the rules didn't allow for, because their DM's were too confused by this new and different subsystem.

Those who were subjected to the previous group and remember Psionics as being abusive (whether it was or wasn't isn't really important- they were touched by Vorlons, and they didn't care for it one bit!).

Those who think psionics is too "sci fi/anime/weird/has no place in my D&D no matter what legitimate fantasy sources you cite- also, get guns out of my D&D, and hoo ha hi yah "warriors" who can teleport and jump 50 feet in the air- that's unrealistic! Now let's play a game where a hydra can grow 5 new heads and not pass out due to their heart being overworked and flying 10 ton dragons who breathe fire...

Those who like their games uncomplicated and don't want to worry about new and different when tried and true works best.

And those who frankly, my dear, don't give a damn.

You can't get all these people to see eye to eye, since their opinions have been formed by their experiences, and one man's "High Adventure Fantasy with a hulking Barbarian overcoming impossible odds" is another man's "standard gritty low magic, low fantasy fantasy heartbreaker".

 

[Neonchameleon]

And those spells include things like hunger of Hadar, Evard's black tentacles, and summon aberration.

And you can trade them if you don't like them. It's one spell at each of first, and fifth levels which you can trade immediately and two spells at seventh so you're going to have a dead spell for a single level.

That, plus their non-component use is limited to spells cast purely with sorcery points, which makes it a highly limited ability.

How's it limited? You do realise you can turn a spell slot into sorcery points equal to that spell's level as a bonus action? And you can then spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's slot to cast it.

It's only 'limited' in that you need enough spell slots to cast the spells. You then need to spend bonus actions which you can do before the combat if you like.

There's way too much aberration in the Aberrant Mind for it to what I want in a psionic class

You mean that you have to sit on one spell at seventh level and you have to ignore a single level 14 sub-ability? (I mean eyes turning black or glowing to see invisible is pretty normal).

If you don't want your psion to have any aberration you can do it - and the only cost is not using a single known spell for a single level and not using one of their four L14 abilities.