D&D General For those that find Alignment useful, what does "Lawful" mean to you

[Flamestrike]

One of the greatest Alignment screw ups is people claiming Vader to be 'Lawful'.

There is nothing Lawful about Vader. He has no code, does not respect family honor or tradition, is bound to no laws, and acts however his rage, hatred and anger dictate (subject only to the will of the Emperor, whom he only serves out of fear).

He openly betrays the Emperor to Luke in ESB (join me and we can overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son), betrays Lando (Im altering the deal, pray I dont alter it any further'), is party to Tarkin lying to Leia when Alderaan is blown up, finally betrays the Emperor himself in RoTJ, attempts to kill his own Son, threatens to turn his own daughter to the Dark Side (or presumably kill her as well), kills his best friend, murders several Imperial officers.

He's a team killing jerk, motivated by his own rage, hatred and fear. An audience with him is as likely to see you throttled to death, as it is for you to get any other kind of response from him.

It's just he's in service of a LE Empire. People conflate the two.

He was Chaotic as a Jedi (reckless, impulsive, headstrong, and acting in defiance of any code). But at least he was also a Good man.

As a Sith, he was just as reckless, headstrong and impulsive. It was just that he was also a morally repugnant monster.

 

[RuinousPowers]

Thor is Chaotic (like DCU Aquaman) and both are also hereditary nobility. Aquaman was pretty non-fussed about it, and Thor was an arrogant dick about it.

Then when Thor finally got to be king, he handed the job over to someone else, so he could play the PlayStation and drink beer, before leaving entirely with the GOTG on a spaceship.

Loki was Chaotic and he wanted the job. But that was simply so he could do whatever he wanted (so he had Chaotic ambitions to rule) and also because he felt like an outsider his whole life, and desired love.

Chaotic people can desire to rule. They just tend not to follow rules themselves.

Why would a Chaotic believe in hereditary nobility, which is an institution not based upon an individual at all? Is Thor known for not keeping his word? Does he break oaths easily? Has it even been established to be Chaotic? Everything about the Marvel character seems pretty LG to me.

 

[Yaarel]

One of the greatest Alignment screw ups is people claiming Vader to be 'Lawful'.

There is nothing Lawful about Vader. He has no code, does not respect family honor or tradition, is bound to no laws, and acts however his rage, hatred and anger dictate (subject only to the will of the Emperor, whom he only serves out of fear).

He openly betrays the Emperor to Luke in ESB (join me and we can overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son), betrays Lando (Im altering the deal, pray I dont alter it any further'), is party to Tarkin lying to Leia when Alderaan is blown up, finally betrays the Emperor himself in RoTJ, attempts to kill his own Son, threatens to turn his own daughter to the Dark Side (or presumably kill her as well), kills his best friend, murders several Imperial officers.

He's a team killing jerk, motivated by his own rage, hatred and fear. An audience with him is as likely to see you throttled to death, as it is for you to get any other kind of response from him.

It's just he's in service of a LE Empire. People conflate the two.

He was Chaotic as a Jedi (reckless, impulsive, headstrong, and acting in defiance of any code). But at least he was also a Good man.

As a Sith, he was just as reckless, headstrong and impulsive. It was just that he was also a morally repugnant monster.

Good call on Darth Vader being Chaotic Evil.

He wants to rule the universe but doesnt actually care about the universe. He is only in it for himself alone.

The one saving grace is his love for his son Luke. But even then he doesnt care about what Luke cares about.

Darth Vader is a sith, thru and thru.

 

[Amrûnril]

One of the greatest Alignment screw ups is people claiming Vader to be 'Lawful'.

There is nothing Lawful about Vader. He has no code, does not respect family honor or tradition, is bound to no laws, and acts however his rage, hatred and anger dictate (subject only to the will of the Emperor, whom he only serves out of fear).

He openly betrays the Emperor to Luke in ESB (join me and we can overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son), betrays Lando (Im altering the deal, pray I dont alter it any further'), is party to Tarkin lying to Leia when Alderaan is blown up, finally betrays the Emperor himself in RoTJ, attempts to kill his own Son, threatens to turn his own daughter to the Dark Side (or presumably kill her as well), kills his best friend, murders several Imperial officers.

He's a team killing jerk, motivated by his own rage, hatred and fear. An audience with him is as likely to see you throttled to death, as it is for you to get any other kind of response from him.

It's just he's in service of a LE Empire. People conflate the two.

He was Chaotic as a Jedi (reckless, impulsive, headstrong, and acting in defiance of any code). But at least he was also a Good man.

As a Sith, he was just as reckless, headstrong and impulsive. It was just that he was also a morally repugnant monster.

Vader strikes me as a character with strong tendencies in both directions on the Law-Chaos axis. All the chaotic traits you point out are are definitely there. At the same time, though I think he really does believe his argument to Luke that their combined strength could "end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy". If we consider the prequels, we also see that he starts with a lot of faith in institutions (a Jedi On Tatooine must be there to free the slaves). And though he's become somewhat disillusioned by episodes 2 and 3, he doesn't see "the system" not working as a limitation of institutions in general, but rather as evidence for the need of a better structure with "someone wise" to make people agree.

As for Tarkin, I'll note that he never actually promises to spare Alderaan if Leia cooperates. But even putting aside semantic considerations, seeing lies by the authorities to "terrorists" as a justified tactic but lies by "terrorists" to said authorities as cause for outrage strikes me as entirely consistent with a lawful evil worldview.

 

[FrozenNorth]

As for Tarkin, I'll note that he never actually promises to spare Alderaan if Leia cooperates. But even putting aside semantic considerations, seeing lies by the authorities to "terrorists" as a justified tactic but lies by "terrorists" to said authorities as cause for outrage strikes me as entirely consistent with a lawful evil worldview.

Yes, the law exists to protect people like me and screw over people like you is reasonable interpretation of Tarkin’s worldview.

 

[darkwillow]

One of the greatest Alignment screw ups is people claiming Vader to be 'Lawful'.

There is nothing Lawful about Vader.

Couldn't disagree more, Vader was a solider following the emperors wishes for a long time. He didn't kill indiscriminately. He ran a tight ship.

Did he do chaotic things now and then, sure.

 

[Amrûnril]

Couldn't disagree more, Vader was a solider following the emperors wishes for a long time. He didn't kill indiscriminately. He ran a tight ship.

Did he do chaotic things now and then, sure.

As I said, I think Vader has some lawful tendencies. But a lack of indiscriminate killing is not one of them.

He chokes Captain Antilles to death, even though he might have valuable information if subjected to same interrogation techniques as Princess Leia.
He chokes Admiral Ozzel to death over a video call with only the only the faintest hint of an explanation.
He chokes Captain Needa to death for apologizing for a single error (one that most officers in the same position would have made).
He doesn't choke Admiral Piet to death, despite his failures to prevent the rebel evacuation from Hoth or the Falcon's escape from Cloud City.
He chokes his own wife arguably to death when he suspects she cooperated with Obi-Wan.

Each of those decisions seems to be based on his whims at the moment in question more than any rational strategy or set of rules.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Vader strikes me as a character with strong tendencies in both directions on the Law-Chaos axis. All the chaotic traits you point out are are definitely there. At the same time, though I think he really does believe his argument to Luke that their combined strength could "end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy". If we consider the prequels, we also see that he starts with a lot of faith in institutions (a Jedi On Tatooine must be there to free the slaves). And though he's become somewhat disillusioned by episodes 2 and 3, he doesn't see "the system" not working as a limitation of institutions in general, but rather as evidence for the need of a better structure with "someone wise" to make people agree.

It's almost like the alignment is not a sensible way to model a person's nature...

 

[Amrûnril]

It's almost like the alignment is not a sensible way to model a person's nature...

Condensing something as complicated as a character's personality onto two axes of variation is always going to simplify/overlook a lot of interesting variation. But if such a simplification is useful as a quick summary for some characters and is an interesting stating point for discussing others, I think it's worth keeping as one of many descriptive tools.

 

[Flamestrike]

Why would a Chaotic believe in hereditary nobility

For reasons I haver already explained.

Everything about the Marvel Thor seems pretty LG to me.

Cool, that's your opinion. I 100 percent disagree, and I hazard a guess most would as well.