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D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

As for Psionics not existing in the Forgotten Realms, that's not true, despite what the Complete Psionics Handbook claims. Elminster had psionic abilities in 1e (see attached file for evidence).
My statement was a reference to the 2E Forgotten Realms Adventures Book. On page 6 they tell you that psionics no longer exist, and detractors claim it never existed. It specifcally terlls you that when you convert an AD&D FR PC to 2E, you remove the psionic abilities - that they "lose those abilities and gain nothing in retuyrn for that loss."

This is part of a long history of back and forth inconsistency in D&D with regards to Psionics. Generally speaking, they delay introducing them in an edition, they try to 'fix' the problems with prior editions, and the fix ends up worse than the prior flawed system.

I still endorse making a system that builds off the best of AD&D and 2E and gives it a 5E treatment. There is a lot of fertile ground to make a great contribution to the game.
 

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That's... not what the Complete Psionics Handbook said, anyway. It had this to say about psionics in the settings available at the time:

FORGOTTEN REALMS: Prior to the Time of Troubles, psionics were extremely rare in the Realms. The incidence of psionic abilities is now on the rise and the powers themselves seem to have become more stable. Most people have never heard of psionics or psionicists; those who have tend to confuse it with magic.
....
Complete Psionics was 2E, and this contradicted the statement in tbe Forgotten Realms Adventures book. FRA was writtn in 1990, and Complete Psionics in 1991, meaning that when FRA was being published, the Complete Psionics was likely being written so....

As noted throughout this thread, Psionics handling and lore has been inconsistent as it relates to the rules for psionics and the established lore of the FR with relation to psionics .... which contribute to the confusion.

I can say, with authority, that a DM that attempted to stick with the core heart of AD&D and 2E psionics as they implemented the various edition approaches to them, it was possible to do better and have a fun system that filled a useful and engaging place in a fantasy setting.
 

So. For 5e. What should the lore for psionics be? Is there a cosmology that we can all either love or tolerate?

I suspect we can all agree, psionics is one of the main power sources: martial, arcane, divine, psionic, and primal.

Actually. Arcane and divine are moreorless the same thing, two ways to engage the "Weave".

But I view psionic and primal to be moreorless the same thing. The difference is thematic. Primal tends to be more about the minds of nature (the elements and plant). Psionic tends to be more about the minds of bodies (humanoid and beast).

Both psionic and primal have "spirit" in common, but for psionic, spirit is moreso in the aspect of soul-ki, and for primal, spirit is moreso in the aspect of the element of ether-force.

Maybe the pairings, arcane-divine versus psionic-primal, are a fruitful approach to make psionic feel more unique. In this way, psionic benefits from the precedent of the primal classes that are already in the Players Handbook: Druid and Ranger.
 

So. For 5e. What should the lore for psionics be? Is there a cosmology that we can all either love or tolerate?
Sometimes if a person with the correct amount of INT, WIS, and CHA is exposed to latent magic and can withstand it with their CON, the mind can resist. This can create a magical void. And in this void, minds can develop psionics.

Psionics is a result of magic retreating. Dead zones. Dead gods. Too many counterspells. Memory wipes.
 

Sometimes if a person with the correct amount of INT, WIS, and CHA is exposed to latent magic and can withstand it with their CON, the mind can resist. This can create a magical void. And in this void, minds can develop psionics.

Psionics is a result of magic retreating. Dead zones. Dead gods. Too many counterspells. Memory wipes.
Maybe the other way around?

The mind is first and pure, ... literally "primal". Reality itself is a sharing of mind over matter. Matter behaves like minds sharing the same dreamscape. (Compare how the ethereal domains in the Feywild and Shadowfell work. A mind shapes this locale.)

The "weave" comes later. It is the solidifying of this primal matter, becoming less responsive to minds. It makes reality more stable but also impersonal and objectifying. The weave is like strands forming a spiderweb. It threatens to entrap and choke conscious minds if left unchecked.

There is general agreement that ones own conscious mind is vital, but that a stable reality is useful. So both mind and weave are important, but there is tension between the two.
 


Maybe the other way around?

The mind is first and pure, ... literally "primal". Reality itself is a sharing of mind over matter. Matter behaves like minds sharing the same dreamscape. (Compare how the ethereal domains in the Feywild and Shadowfell work. A mind shapes this locale.)

The "weave" comes later. It is the solidifying of this primal matter, becoming less responsive to minds. It makes reality more stable but also impersonal and objectifying. The weave is like strands forming a spiderweb. It threatens to entrap and choke conscious minds if left unchecked.

There is general agreement that ones own conscious mind is vital, but that a stable reality is useful. So both mind and weave are important, but there is tension between the two.
That's backwards for some settings though,

It makes more sense that psionics is triggered by the absense, the destabilization, or an alien influence of magic.
 

So. For 5e. What should the lore for psionics be? Is there a cosmology that we can all either love or tolerate?

I suspect we can all agree, psionics is one of the main power sources: martial, arcane, divine, psionic, and primal.

Actually. Arcane and divine are moreorless the same thing, two ways to engage the "Weave"...
I doubt you can get a consistently approved and desired singular approach. I don't think a single approach would get universal support from even half of the people on these boards.

As for what the lore should be, despite a majority of people disagreeing with it, I'd say the best they can do is set themselves up to win people over. The best way to do that is to appease a dedicated group of players that will be willing to pay for psionic related material. One group known to spend a lot of money on books consistently are long term gamers, and the best way to appear long term gamers is to appeal to their sense of tradition and history. To that end, I'd build psionics ... how I built psionics in my setting: Based upon the lore and traditions of old.

Features I'd advocate for seeing:

1.) It comes from internally generated power not associated with the arcane, divine, nature/primal or any other magic based power source.

2.) It has distinctly different mechanics from spells/magic, meaning that detect magic would not detect psionics, etc... and we would not use existing spell mechanics to describe psionic powers. Instead, psionics would be as different from a wizard as a fighter is different from a wizard. After all, both the Battlemaster Fighter and the Wizard have mechanics that can frighten, prone, and push enemies - but they're very distinct from each other.

3.) Uses the 5 historical psionic attacks and 5 historical psionic defenses in ways that are meaningful and useful outside of psionic on psionic combat. This is not that hard, but the crafting would need to be careful to implement without violating rule 2 above and making it seem too similar to casting spells/cantrips.

4.) Allows for 'wild' psionics, potentially via feat or background.

5.) Allows for psionic classes such as the psion and psychic warrior.

6.) Provides classes and subclasses that do not feel like wizards, monks, sorcerers, etc..., but instead have a unique feel that is distinct to the psionic classes, but not anathema to fantasy 'purists' that see all D&D through the lens of Tolkien. You could have 'overlap' subclasses (like the eldritch knight overlaps wizard onto a fighter), but you'd need to have the main class be dominant and the subclass be supportive/flavor. I do think the existing psuedo psionic subclasses approach this idea, but I also believe they can be done better. This can be done - I've won over players that didn't like the idea of psionics in D&D once they've seen it in play in my campaigns (mostly in the 2E, 3E and 4E eras, although 4E examples are less relevant).

7.) Respects and (where possible) utilizes the teminology of old such as the Sciences (Clairsentience, Psychokinetic, Psychoportative, etc...), Devotions, Disciplines, Powers, etc...

8.) Provides alternate versions of traditionally psionic monsters within the 5E rules that utilize psionic mechanics rather than spellcasting mechanics.

9.) Is mechanically approachable to all - meaning it isn't overly complex.
 

That's backwards for some settings though,

It makes more sense that psionics is triggered by the absense, the destabilization, or an alien influence of magic.
For me, psionic is mind, nothing else.

How could someone not have a mind until they stumbled into a dead zone in the weave?

I can see how the weave can impede the influence of a mind, but the mind is always there.

In a weave dead zone the mind becomes free to directly influence reality again.
 

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