D&D General Why Fantasy? Goin' Medieval in D&D

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
I do hear about folks wanting first level DD PCs with lots of HPs, able to breath fire, and be able to teleport. At some point, being powerful has become synonymous with being heroic in RPGs of all kinds. Being fed a steady diet of super hero stories might have given a popular expectation of such an experience culturally.
No thats a by-product of DnD not superheroes, other games systems like Gurps or Fate push the concept of competence rather than level - so pcs are created to be generally competent adventurers. Unfortunately DnD leveling means that the standard of competence is defined by gonzo
 

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B. D&D, and Fantasy RPGs, Do Not Attempt to Realistically Depict Medieval Societies.
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Yeah. So, one thing most people agree on is that fantasy, generally, tends to be a reactionary and small-c conservative genre. It is the imagining of some bygone time (that never existed). It often involves battles between identifiable forces of good and evil.

Just pulling this one part out...Medievalism is often a means for nostalgia for an imagined, earlier time and, accordingly, the hierarchal social orderings of that time. At the same time, medievalism in fantasy can be a kind of base for creating speculative worlds and imagining characters (including oneself) in them, and in that way can be, like in children's literature, a kind of portal to another world that is not this world. And that doesn't have to be strictly escapist, but can be political and utopian.

Concretely, the author I'm thinking of most here is William Morris and the pre-raphaelites, who turned to medieval imagery and stories to ground a socialist alternative to industrial capitalism


 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Rebutting some of your points (since that is my wont):

A. Historical advantage seems by far the most significant element here. E.g., you had to gloss over the science part of Star Wars's science fantasy, the huge potential of something like Star Trek for a sandbox campaign (imagine bridge crew/away team stuff, easy peasy, and space is as dangerous as "the wilds" can get!), and the enduring appeal of sci-fi TV shows, where fantasy TV shows have been...shall we say, few and far between unless they're specifically for children, at least in the West. I don't think fantasy is all that much better-equipped for this stuff than science fiction is. Now, you may be asserting here that "fantasy" includes "science fiction" (as some have), but you're pretty clearly talking about the really narrow "pseudo-medieval faux-European vaguely-Tolkienesque schizotech" branch that is so widely used by D&D and its offspring, and science fiction doesn't fit into that mold.

B. I mean, I agree with you that D&D does not actually simulate Europe (hence "faux-European"), nor the Middle Ages to any meaningful degree whether whole or in part (hence "pseudo-medieval"), but there's a big problem with your assertion here.

People act like that's what D&D is doing. A LOT. Almost constantly, in fact. That is THE reason people give for rejecting the existence of Monks in D&D, for example. It's not "these don't fit the kind of fiction D&D uses," it's "these are clearly non-European, they don't belong in a game based on Europe." Likewise, people argue against the possibility of a lively trade in magic items because no such trade would have been functional in Medieval Europe due to the difficulties of transport. People argue that most locations should be xenophobic and racist, ever ready to pull out the torches and pitchforks, because that's what they think Medieval Europe was like. (In truth, it was not; major trade occurred between the Middle East, North Africa, and Europe, to the point that even in England it was understood that "Moors" were people with dark skin--there would be no need to write about biracial characters in Arthurian romances nor Moors wishing to convert to Christianity if there was absolutely no conception of intercontinental travel!) And people WILL use claims of historicity to justify their positions.

So....the problem isn't that you're wrong, but rather that the community behaves as though you are wrong, and THAT is a long-standing and EXTREMELY serious issue with the growth of D&D.

C. There's two much, much simpler reasons why monarchies show up so much, apart from the rather trite "people associate fantasy pseudo-medieval faux-Europe with monarchies." They are: drama, and simplicity.

Monarchies allow for much more dramatic storytelling, because of the power and prestige vested in the crown. Being nobility is a fantasy for many; being royalty is particularly a childhood fantasy for many children, especially girls, who are often given fantastical princesses (whether or not they are actually princesses) to look up to as role models in fiction. We can intuitively grasp the meaning of being the princess, the one in charge. If a monarch is in danger, the whole country cares. If the monarch is evil, the whole country cares. If a monarchy is without a current monarch, that's a time ripe for civil war. A character may discover they are the true heir to the throne, or become involved romantically with someone who is. These are all high-drama stories, stuff that makes for a big 'oooooh' moment.

Related to, but not quite the same as, the previous: monarchies are simple. You have one leader, and everyone does what they say. Obviously real monarchy is a hell of a lot more complicated than that, as you ALWAYS have subordinates and people who owe you allegiance and functionaries who keep the system running etc. But a monarchy is much easier to grapple with as an individual person than even an oligarchy, to say nothing of a republic or a democracy (or both). Want to ask for help? You need to talk to one person. Want to force a regime change? You only need to take out one person. Want to go straight to the top? Simple--find an eligible unmarried monarch and put on the moves. Monarchies simplify the entire process of having to deal with a state bureaucracy into one neat, clean interaction, for almost anything one might want to do that interacts with them. Thus, monarchies (or dictatorships, though those tend to have bad reputations--and usually get called "empires") predominate.
 



overgeeked

B/X Known World
Any way I could get a non-Derrida summary of what is actually meant, here? Because I've tried to understand the man's work before, more than once, and found it either totally impenetrable, trivial to the point of hilarity, or the philosophical equivalent of vaporware.
Modern philosophy has basically been worthless since they got hung up on the is-ought problem. Except Camus. He knew what was up.

The short version is: watch the video.

The text, and probably wrong, version is:

In the present, we're haunted by the mythologized past. That mythologized past erases the historical past. White washing history, basically. Things were better when. But, we cling to that lie when the reality is things were terrible. We focus on the good and ignore the bad. People seeing the 1950s as an economic boom, but ignoring equal rights, civil rights, women's rights, etc. And that we build up the mythologized past as an escape from the dreary present. But, other writers have also posited that we're not only haunted by the past, but haunted by the lost potential futures that could have been. Like the vision of the future as seen by people in the 1950s. Not only are we haunted by the mythologized past of the 1950s...we're further haunted by that past's vision of the future...that lost potential we failed to realize...which is now irrevocably lost to us. Not living up to the past's starry-eyed vision of the future (our present) makes us dissatisfied with the present, and as a means to escape the present, we mythologize the past...this kind of weird psychological loop.
 
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Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Modern philosophy has basically been worthless since they got hung up on the is-ought problem. Except Camus. He knew what was up.

The short version is: watch the video.

The text, and probably wrong, version is:

In the present, we're haunted by the mythologized past. That mythologized past erases the historical past. White washing history, basically. Things were better when. But, we cling to that lie when the reality is things were terrible. We focus on the good and ignore the bad. People seeing the 1950s as an economic boom, but ignoring equal rights, civil rights, women's rights, etc. And that we build up the mythologized past as an escape from the dreary present. But, other writers have also posited that we're not only haunted by the past, but haunted by the lost potential futures that could have been. Like the vision of the future as seen by people in the 1950s. Not only are we haunted by the mythologized past of the 1950s...we're further haunted by that past's vision of the future...that lost potential we failed to realize...which is now irrevocably lost to us. Not living up to the past's starry-eyed vision of the future (our present) makes us dissatisfied with the present, and as a means to escape the present, we mythologize the past...this kind of weird psychological loop.

yeah I’m still waiting for flying cars and my hoverboard :)

but yeah our present is defined by our mythologised view of the world rather than by any objective truth
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Modern philosophy has basically been worthless since they got hung up on the is-ought problem. Except Camus. He knew what was up.

The short version is: watch the video.

The text, and probably wrong, version is:

In the present, we're haunted by the mythologized past. That mythologized past erases the historical past. White washing history, basically. Things were better when. But, we cling to that lie when the reality is things were terrible. We focus on the good and ignore the bad. People seeing the 1950s as an economic boom, but ignoring equal rights, civil rights, women's rights, etc. And that we build up the mythologized past as an escape from the dreary present. But, other writers have also posited that we're not only haunted by the past, but haunted by the lost potential futures that could have been. Like the vision of the future as seen by people in the 1950s. Not only are we haunted by the mythologized past of the 1950s...we're further haunted by that past's vision of the future...that lost potential we failed to realize...which is now irrevocably lost to us. Not living up to the past's starry-eyed vision of the future (our present) makes us dissatisfied with the present, and as a means to escape the present, we mythologize the past...this kind of weird psychological loop.
Okay. So it's "we have more than dissatisfaction with the present and rose-colored glasses about the past, we have the ghosts (hence 'haunt') of futures that never happened but that would have been awesome."

It's the philosophical equivalent of that old IBM commercial where Avery Brooks demands to know where the flying cars are. Not...really sure where that's going, tbh. But I'll watch the video.

----

Having watched it...gotta be honest, a lot of this seems like someone who got really caught up in something like solipsism, and took an enormous amount of effort and talking around it to escape from that mire. But...in so doing, basically got back to exactly where they were before, just with the lessons of Rashomon and a relatively typical bildungsroman (your expectations and your reality may diverge; you must learn to keep dreaming, even if your old dreams wither or die; you'll regret the things you didn't do more than the things you did).

It just seems like a lot of effort put into "understand the message of Rashomon and The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe plus Voyage of the Dawn Treader."
 

I think it is a bit more simple: Chainmail is a medieval miniature wargame. The idea of D&D started as an addation to Chainmail. So....Chainmail =medieval, so D&D = medieval.
Yes, this is certainly why there is so much medieval hardware in early D&D, even though we know from Appendix N that non-medievalist writers such as Howard, Lovecraft and Moorcock where big influences on early D&D.

And there is a sense of confusion over certain elements, like swords, castles and monarchy are "medieval", when they are actually mythic, and much older. These are found in everything from Greek myths to Beowulf to Star Wars to modern Britain.

Beowulf is the great granddaddy of D&D stories, dating to before the medieval period, but already having named swords (Hrunting), proto-kings (Hrothgar) living in proto-castles (Heorot). It also has a protagonist who is already an action hero from the very start of the story, able to single-handedly kill a monster that has already defeated dozens of ordinary warriors, and who is motivated by a desire for fortune and glory, rather than seeking to save the world from evil.

The Arthurian myths also predate the medieval period, but incorporate a lot of medieval trappings because they became extremely popular during the late medieval period, and where "modernised" in the retelling.
 
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