D&D General Why Fantasy? Goin' Medieval in D&D

[reelo]

Something that doesn't get explored enough, imho, is PRE-feudal times. The period between the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the Norman conquest seems to me ideal:

You have medieval weapons and armor (well, not plate, but leaving that out you can just adapt the ACs for other types up/down) you have both isolated villages and larger towns, you have crumbling ruins from a collapsed empire, you have people moving and settling, you have invaders and/or traders from faraway, you have religious strife ....

So if you want "medieval" D&D without all the hassle of a King»Duke»Count/Earl»Baron»Knight hierarchy, look for the Migration period, it has all you need.

 

[Seramus]

Also? I'm kind of distracted by trying to settle on a new avatar. So there's that.

You have excellent taste! Of course, you are a Snarf, so any kind of cat is appropriate.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The themes of their work wasnt really about powerful (super)heroes though. Power was intangible to the protagonists. They survived by guile, luck, and heart. Not because they had super strength or shot laser out of their eyes.

Conan looks like a powerful action hero to me! He doesn't have superpowers, he is just better than everyone else. Which is really even more fantastical.

And there are plenty of mighty heroes in Tolkien, he just chooses not to focus on those characters.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Something that doesn't get explored enough, imho, is PRE-feudal times. The period between the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the Norman conquest seems to me ideal:

You have medieval weapons and armor (well, not plate, but leaving that out you can just adapt the ACs for other types up/down) you have both isolated villages and larger towns, you have crumbling ruins from a collapsed empire, you have people moving and settling, you have invaders and/or traders from faraway, you have religious strife ....

So if you want "medieval" D&D without all the hassle of a King»Duke»Count/Earl»Baron»Knight hierarchy, look for the Migration period, it has all you need.

Why bother, some tables excepted, D&D is not exploring any history. The medieval period has been beaten into something that we can all use. Where a potboy can mouth off to a lord and survive the experience (again there may be tables where this is not so) and it is a thing of its own.
It has a much resemblance to anything historic as the "Mystic Knights of Tír na nÓg" has to the Book of Conquests

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Something that doesn't get explored enough, imho, is PRE-feudal times. The period between the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the Norman conquest seems to me ideal:

You have medieval weapons and armor (well, not plate, but leaving that out you can just adapt the ACs for other types up/down) you have both isolated villages and larger towns, you have crumbling ruins from a collapsed empire, you have people moving and settling, you have invaders and/or traders from faraway, you have religious strife ....

So if you want "medieval" D&D without all the hassle of a King»Duke»Count/Earl»Baron»Knight hierarchy, look for the Migration period, it has all you need.

And this is the time when Beowulf and the early Arthurian myths are being created, and which inspired Tolkien to create Rohan. But of course it is called the Dark Ages because no one knows about it (see also: Dark Matter, Dark Energy).

 

[Umbran]

They survived by being smart or sheer will against ghostly beings and cosmic horrors they could never fully comprehend.

Being able to do that, being clever and indomitable, is a power in and of itself. The fantasy that you can be like Conan is still a power fantasy.

 

[payn]

Conan looks like a powerful action hero to me! He doesn't have superpowers, he is just better than everyone else. Which is really even more fantastical.

And there are plenty of mighty heroes in Tolkien, he just chooses not to focus on those characters.

Exactly, there is fantastical power beyond the protagonists that they must engage and survive. Conan has above average strength for sure, but he cant pick up a mountain or do any of the things Beowulf or Hercules can do. He looks scary cosmic horror and God like wizards in the face and says bring it! He survives through sheer will and luck.

 

[payn]

Being able to do that, being clever and indomitable, is a power in and of itself. The fantasy that you can be like Conan is still a power fantasy.

Indeed, a type of power fantasy. One in which a lot of folks want to take out of D&D. Which, I understand because it gets the most development and attention of the zero to hero to superhero dynamic. I just hope they don't remove this type of power fantasy because its all I want from D&D.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Exactly, there is fantastical power beyond the protagonists that they must engage and survive. Conan has above average strength for sure, but he cant pick up a mountain or do any of the things Beowulf or Hercules can do. He looks scary cosmic horror and God like wizards in the face and says bring it! He survives through sheer will and luck.

Conan can do exactly the same things that Beowulf can do - they are virtually the same character! And they survive against impossible odds because they are action heroes, and follow action hero rules.

Their feats are far more fantastical than Herakles, who can do what he does because he has divinely granted super strength.

 

[payn]

Conan can do exactly the same things that Beowulf can do - they are virtually the same character! And they survive against impossible odds because they are action heroes, and follow action hero rules.

Their feats are far more fantastical than Herakles, who can do what he does because he has divinely granted super strength.

When did Conan swim underwater for three days straight?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

When did Conan swim underwater for three days straight?

I don't remember Conan doing it, but I have seen action heroes from Indiana Jones to James T. Kirk survive under water for impossible lengths of time.

 

[Micah Sweet]

When did Conan swim underwater for three days straight?

It's in Conan vs. The Devil-fish of the Ocean Depths. A lesser-known work.

 

[Umbran]

Indeed, a type of power fantasy. One in which a lot of folks want to take out of D&D.

I find this overstated, a figment of how internet conversation drives people to poles and backs them into rhetorical corners in conflicts that have more to do with ego than game design desires.

I will buy the idea that many people are perfectly willing to allow this kind of power fantasy to fall by the wayside if that's the way they get the fantasy they prefer. But that's not the same as actively seeking its removal.

 

[payn]

I don't remember Conan doing it, but I have seen action heroes from Indiana Jones to James T. Kirk survive under water for impossible lengths of time.

Sure 3 min is a dialing back of the 3 days. Which is what we are discussing a level of difference between protagonist power and ability. There may be no difference at all to you, but to many folks, its stark.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It's in Conan vs. The Devil-fish of the Ocean Depths. A lesser-known work.

It certainly could exist. Action Heroes can do whatever the plot requires them to do. They have far fewer limits than superheroes, whose abilities are limited by their powerset.

Who would win in a fight between Conan and Hercules? Conan, because Hercules only has superstrength, whereas Conan's abilities are always just enough for him to win.

 

[payn]

I find this overstated, a figment of how internet conversation drives people to poles and backs them into rhetorical corners in conflicts that have more to do with ego than game design desires.

I will buy the idea that many people are perfectly willing to allow this kind of power fantasy to fall by the wayside if that's the way they get the fantasy they prefer. But that's not the same as actively seeking its removal.

Fair enough, I think it was a major element of the edition wars. Though, I am going to leave it there as to not get off topic.

 

[Cadence]

One of my reasons for preferring fantasy/D&D is that I have trouble GMing some of the other settings:

• In modern and non-post apocalyptic sci-fi games, I get bogged down in how communications and data searches make a lot of things easier and have trouble not just jumping to the easy solutions (or just not ruling them out).
• In super-hero games, much of the comic literature doesn't particularly feel like it fits a campaign set-up to me. The motivational literature centers too much on fights, has vast intra-party power level differences, and ignores the easy fixes (Monica Rambeau or Flash moving at close to the speed of light knocks everyone out).

For ones I haven't tried to run yet, I've wondered:

• In wild-west games the motivating literature has gun fights being really dangerous with a single shot. Do the PCs have hero armor? Is there actual risk of losing? Do they just die?
• In crime-noire/detective settings is there a way to enforce the classic of getting people knocked out instead of just gunned down.

I haven't run one in a long time, post post-apocalyptic feels like it hits a lot of the notes fantasy does. It's not in my usual readings or viewings, but does steam punk too?

 

[Umbran]

When did Conan swim underwater for three days straight?

"After these words, the prince of the Weather-Geats
Was impatient to be away and plunged suddenly:
Without more ado, he dived in to the heaving
Depths of the lake. It was the best part of a day
Before he could see the solid bottom."

(emphasis mine) Where is it three days straight? I mean, sure, swimming underwater for hours is still superhuman, but let's keep to the text, at least, right?

 

[reelo]

Why bother, some tables excepted, D&D is not exploring any history. The medieval period has been beaten into something that we can all use. Where a potboy can mouth off to a lord and survive the experience (again there may be tables where this is not so) and it is a thing of its own.
It has a much resemblance to anything historic as the "Mystic Knights of Tír na nÓg" has to the Book of Conquests

I bother. I like history. Even if it is infused with fantastic elements like actual magic, or gods that actually exist and intervene. Fantasy needs to be grounded in some semblance of historic verisimilitude to have any appeal for me. And since—and this is a purely personal opinion of mine—I don't like magitech and steampunk, I prefer going back instead of forward in time. I just can't stand swashbuckling musketeers riding magic trains and wearing laced velvet shirts.

Something like Design Mechanism's "Mythic Britain/Logres", TLG's "Codex Nordica/Germania/Slavorum/Celtarum" or Mongoose's "Vikings of Legend" is right up my alley.

 

[payn]

"After these words, the prince of the Weather-Geats
Was impatient to be away and plunged suddenly:
Without more ado, he dived in to the heaving
Depths of the lake. It was the best part of a day
Before he could see the solid bottom."

(emphasis mine) Where is it three days straight? I mean, sure, swimming underwater for hours is still superhuman, but let's keep to the text, at least, right?

"Beowulf had to swim underwater for three days and then he fought The Troll-Wife. After he defeated the troll wife he then proceeded to get back to the king to get his reward."

Even the best part of a day is inhumanly possible. Even low level D&D spells that allow this kind of thing don't last long enough to do it at low level.