Spelljammer Spelljammer Confirmed (MAYBE, April Fools?)

[Jer]

That is disappointing to me. I was hoping they would find a way to eliminate them. They always rubbed me the wrong way.

My problem with the Crystal Spheres was always that it's a one-size fits all approach to something where even by TSR's own publications was not one-size-fits-all (Mystara, even while Spelljammer was published, was not in a Crystal Sphere, and yet it had its own rules for space travel).

When I care about making the lore work within my setting (which is sometimes, though not always, but often when I run a world hopping game), the Universe of the Crystal Spheres is one of the possible Universes that have connections to the Ethereal. It's an "infinite" universe (like our own - so maybe it just stretches on infinitely or maybe there's an outer limit but it's large enough to be treated as infinite for our purposes) filled with phlogiston instead of vacuum. And within the phlogiston float the Crystal Spheres which contain various "systems" (though not all are solar systems, of course).

Mystara in my view sits in its own infinite universe as a "parallel universe" to the Universe of Crystal Spheres that is more like ours (space is a void, stars are other solar systems, etc.) and is connected to the Ethereal but isn't connected to the phlogiston. That matches the actual "canon" of Mystara as published by TSR back in the day. IMO Eberron would also be in its own "parallel universe" within the Ether. (As would Athas - I know canonically Athas is in a Crystal Sphere but IMO it really shouldn't be given how much they work to keep it cut off from the other worlds via planar travel). And then whatever other parallel worlds I want to stick out there can have their own cosmologies as well, but are all connected via the Ethereal.

(My Outer Planes also sit within an infinite Astral Sea - the Great Wheel is a specific group of planes that depending on my mood are either artificially strung together via gates because of the philosophies of the Factions of Sigil that think they should be connected in a precise wheel of Law and Chaos and Good and Evil, or are fundamentally connected together that way for some unknowable reason. But there are an infinite number of other Outer Planes out there to be explored that have no connection to the Great Wheel at all - reconciling my desire to use the Planescape planes but also to use the cosmology as set up in BECMI D&D where the Outer Planes were infinite and ultimately unknowable. I'm all about maximal flexibility with this kind of stuff).

 

[dave2008]

It's an "infinite" universe (like our own - so maybe it just stretches on infinitely or maybe there's an outer limit but it's large enough to be treated as infinite for our purposes)

I just wanted to point out the our RL universe is not infinite. It as measurable limits: 93 billion light-years

 

[dave2008]

We will see what "phlogiston" is in D&D 5e.

But based on earlier editions, it can easily be: phlogiston is an other name for the shallow ethereal that is inside the material plane, in contrast to the deep ethereal that has no connection to the material plane.

phlogiston = shallow ether

Yes, I have seen the map in another fairly recent thread

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The phlogiston what the breath of the primordial dragons that destroyed the First World. The crystal spheres are the shattered remains of Sardior, whose sacrifice protected the seedling worlds of the Material Plane from being vaporised by the phlogiston.

 

[Demetrios1453]

The entire crystal sphere idea, along with phlogiston and wildspace, are derived from Ptolemaic ideas (that's some ancient Greek stuff).

I always loved Spelljammer partially because it just runs with the idea of "what if ancient ideas about physics were actually accurate?" and built from there.

Phlogiston theory is definitely not Ptolemaic. It's very much early modern (17th - 18th century) theoretical chemistry.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Sorry - if your "gods" are basically big monsters that can be hunted down and killed by any character with enough power, they're no different from any other big monster.

That's an arguable assumption that has been made in polytheist theology before.

Heck, it's an actual core belief in one of Planescape's factions, the Athar (and, to a point, the Believers of the Source).

 

[Parmandur]

Phlogiston theory is definitely not Ptolemaic. It's very much early modern (17th - 18th century) theoretical chemistry.

Having multiple crystal sphere cosmos isn5Ptolimaic, either.

 

[Ath'kethin]

Phlogiston theory is definitely not Ptolemaic. It's very much early modern (17th - 18th century) theoretical chemistry.

That's true. But the theory developed out of early modern astronomers studying the newly-republished and available works of Ptolemy and building upon it, in much the same way Ptolemy built upon Aristotle's work.

 

[Dire Bare]

I'm pretty sure that Eberron is still the same as it ever was, Keith even said so. IIRC, someone on these forums said that per Fizban's that Eberron was not part of the "First World" that connected other D&D worlds.

EDIT: Here is the quote from the book

Eberron
The myths of Eberron describe the involvement of the three Progenitor Dragons in that world’s creation: Siberys, the Dragon Above; Khyber, the Dragon Below; and Eberron, the Dragon Between. These godlike beings are said to have created a microcosm of the multiverse in the depths of the Ethereal Plane, sequestered away from the Outer Planes and all the influence of the gods and other cosmic powers. Viewed through the lens of “Elegy for the First World,” Eberron is thus not actually a fragment of the First World, but a second-generation derivative of that original realm—yet even Eberron is profoundly shaped by dragons.

For @Micah Sweet, I just read the part on the First World in Fizban's and it does paint the idea of the First World as a "Myth" and not a fact. For example:

Whether it is regarded as interpretive myth or historical record, “Elegy for the First World” offers an explanation for the common elements that appear in the legends and mythology of so many worlds across the Material Plane.

and

But dragons, at least in the view of “Elegy for the First World,” are wholly material, dwelling in the Material Plane and embodying its essential nature.

The "first world" is a creation myth, the progenitor dragons of Eberron are a creation myth . . . in regards to Eberron, one could be truth, the other myth. Or both, or neither. Our real world has many creation myths, no reason why the worlds of D&D can't either. I don't feel the need for canon gymnastics to reconcile these two myths, simply presenting them as two different myths is fine.

 

[michaeljpastor]

Then maybe the Phlogiston is like the Ethreal jet stream that leads to different "crystal spheres."

EDIT: In googling how to spell Phlogiston I just learned that it is the name of an old, now debunked, theory of chemistry related to combustion. I had no idea!

I think we have some spontaneous consensus here. I posted the topic Cosmological Constants simultaneously and they jive well with this model.