UngeheuerLich
Legend
Nope. That is not right. You have to read the pact magic section. Magic and pact magic multiclass differently. No need to argue further here.
D&D 5E good breakdown of multiclass vs single class for 5e?
- Thread starter not-so-newguy
- Start date
Nope. That is not right. You have to read the pact magic section. Magic and pact magic multiclass differently. No need to argue further here.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
And the same person argumented differently in an interview. There are different ways to interpret it. Sage advise is not always the best choice to go with. Especially when dealing with people who want to break the game.
Most broken characters (coffeelock) base of the interaction between short rest pact magic and normal spellcasting.
A warlock/paladin that did multiclass for RP sake (celestial warlock/paladin comes* to mind) can still easily use smite spells.
*I meant hexblade. Not celestial... most people have RP reasons to mix paladin with hexblade...
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MoonSong
Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I don't know, he is fairly consistent
As for the combo, it must be the most obvious one ever, because I suck at finding loopholes and power combos and I found it in like five minutes tops.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
You know, I hadn't heard any other interpretations on this point, and the Paladin/Warlock thing was universally accepted at the tables I played at, but U-Lich has a point about Crawford going back and forth on this issue.
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Neonchameleon
Legend
Honestly the specific Smite/warlock interaction either was intended or was something accepted by the designers because warlocks have an invocation in Xanathar's (Eldritch Smite) to turn their spell slots into force based rather than radiant smites.
The Coffeelock on the other hand (sorcerer, flexible casting, loading up on sorcery points from pact magic) is considered by many abusive and subject to the DM's rolled up newspaper.
MoonSong
Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I don't see it as going back and fort, but rather as a possible interpretation he gives to empower DMs to curtail abuse. Though really, the only reason to go warlock is to have a constant supply of sorcery points for metamagic. And even with warlock levels you still run out fast.
MoonSong
Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I don't think anybody has seriously attempted a Coffeelock in real life. To me it was always a theoretical possibility, but not one that had place on a real table. And from experience, three levels of warlock isn't really worth it for the benefit of four extra sorcery points, it is too little and a bit underwhelming because many groups rarely get more than one short rest. Which actually tells us a lot of how underwhelming the sorcerer capstone is...
To my understanding, "Coffeelock" requires deliberately avoiding Long Rests (which is where the "coffee" comes from--drinking caffeine to avoid sleeping) in order to stack Sorcery point totals to arbitrarily high levels. Just using leftover Pact Magic slots to top up Sorcery points is just the standard Sorlock combo. I can definitely see why avoiding Long Rests is considered abusive, but I don't see why just combining Flexible Casting and Pact Magic would be.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Even so, it bothers me when he does this, because I used to be a DM for AL, and the event organizer at the Friendly Local Game Store would strongly urge us to follow not only the rules in the books, but whatever guidance given by Sage Advice and developer tweets. This led to a lot of "well the book doesn't say one way or the other, so I'll rule X way" moments, where suddenly players or other DM's would come up to me and say "well actually, here's this tweet that says Y".
And to say "this works" in 2016 and then to say "but it doesn't have to work that way" in 2018 seems ridiculous. DM's don't need empowerment, that's what their ability to make rulings (and house rules) is for. If someone asks you a question, because they're not sure what the intended rule is, saying "Well it's this. Maybe" isn't very helpful.
Especially if someone is to ask you a question online about how something works and you're like "oh, I know the answer, it's this!", and then someone is like "well, actually, not it's not" and we're both going from the same source.
So I guess the answer for whether or not to multiclass Warlock comes down to "what does your DM say, we're all just idiots on the internet".
Sure.
5th level fighter with multiattack, 16 dex and a Rapier has a +6 attack and is doing a combined 15DPR
4/1 Fighter/Warlock using booming blade and Hex is doing 16.5 DPR and another 9 if he gets movement damage or with GFB alternatively about 7 to a second target within 5 feet
4/1 Fighter/Wizard with booming blade is doing 13 DPR and another 9 if the target moves or with GFB alternatively about 7 to a second target within 5 feet.
4/1 Fighter/Rogue is doing 11 with sneak attack.
4/1 Fighter/Monk is doing 13 with martial arts (using his bonus action).
In none of these is the 5th level fighter doing anywhere close to twice as much damage as the multiclass and in some cases he will be doing less. None of these are an optimized comparison either.
But we are talking about characters who are going to multiclass, which is usually going to be a dex-based fighter if he is multiclassing into Monk or Rogue. He needs to have at least a 14 dexterity to even do it. I will add though that a mutliclassed Fighter-Monk can use a d10 weapon with dexterity.
The argument is 4th level is a terrible time to multiclass, not that multiclass builds are weaker.
No but it lasts an hour he can cast it twice between every short rest. It is going to be there a lot on that kind of character.
The booming blade will trigger at times. That is a fact. There will be times when 2 enemies will be next to each other for GFB. That will happen.
Now the secondary damage on the cantrips is not garaunteed, so it is difficult to compare explicitly, but it is going to happen at times in any build and this character is only 2.5 behind to start with (or 7 without Hex). Further things like a goblin race or feats like telekenetic or mobile can make the secondary damage happen more often than it doesn't happen, and when it happens the cantrip hits for more.
Like I said you need to look at the specific build and weigh what you get with what you lose, including both combat and non-combat.
The extra ~5 DPR you do if you don't multiclass is not overwhelming either.
To put this in perspective, go to Rogue 1 after Fighter 4 and you are getting a skill, expertise, thieves can't, Thieves tools and you are giving up about 5DPR for that, less if consider chance to hit.
Not always. Your assumption here is you are playing a striker of sorts where you need to maximize damage, and if that is the case your argument is probably true.
On the other hand 2 spell slots a day and the ability to save and stay alive is going to be a lot better for a tank character who is more defensive in nature.
Monk weapons go to 1d10 through dedicated weapon, a Rogue can also use a heavy crossbow for 1d10 sneak attack.
On top of that it gives a alternative weapons to use for dex based characters in addition to those above others including hand crossbows, scimitar and whip (the latter being the only finesse or 1-handed reach weapon) and hands down better weapons for strength-based clerics that do not otherwise have martial weapons.
Finally your assumption presumes you don't have a magic weapon. If you have a +1 Morning Star floating around that no one wants to use, your monk can use it effectively instead of his quarterstaff and do more damage with it if he gets martial weapon proficiency.
Not most of the time. The math is above.
There are some builds it is huge on, but it is not universally so. This is why I said the specifics of your build matter.
Usually I pick the starting class for one of four reasons:
1. number of skills (Rogue multiclasses have one more skill if they start as a Rogue)
2. Skill proficiencies options
3. starting equipment
4. saving throw proficiencies
Because you planned to build a multiclass character from the begining. You wanted to pick up metamagic so you can quicken wizard spells and this is one way to do it without losing slots. By starting out as a sorcerer you get con saves out of the gate. Third level gives you the metamagic you want and 4th level is one more for a feat or ASI along with another sorcery point.
There is not much of a downside. Your charisma has no effect on spells known through level 4. Through 3rd level you can use sleep pretty effectively in combat, although you probably get rid of it at 4th level. Things like booming blade work with or without a good charisma and if your dex is 16 a light crossbow will keep up with most cantrips through level 4. Mostly your sorcerer spells would be defensive or utility long term. Before you multiclass your spell list is 5 spells which are probably: shield, silvery barbs, absorb elements, then maybe invisibility and a utility spell (feather fall, comp languages, levitate) or maybe magic missile.
This multiclass character is totally playable and bringing metamagic to a wizard is awesome. Is it as awesome as spells 2 levels higher? Yes in many cases it is.
Not if he wanted metamagic.
I am playing a Drow bladesinger-undead warlock 7-2 right now and she is pretty awesome and her warlock abilities, invocations and "rechargable" slots for spamming shield pay off very well. She started with a 13 Charisma (although now it is a 14).
Her Warlock spells are Armor of Agathys, Hex, Protection from Good and Evil along with cantrips booming blade and friends. She has devils sight and Eldritch Mind invocations.
Would she be more powerful as a straight wizard? Would a 5th level spell and slot be worth more than that? Maybe, but that would be an entirely different character with a completely different look and feel, and she is pretty powerful as is, more powerful than most characters at the table and even though she is losing both higher level slots and high level spells, she is not giving up much at all by dipping into a caster with a poor casting stat.
Explain in terms of mechanics why it does not work. You said it, read what I put above on how to do it and explain specifically why it won't work instead of just saying it won't work.
That is why you make them the class with the low stat because they do not have great options. They get the fewest spells, but it is enough on 4 levels eeven without a subclass that gives more. They also get the most cantrips and you would use these to get boomning blade and a bunch of utility cantrips so you could take exclusively offensive cantrips as wizard.
You do lose out on top level spells, but you get subclass features metamagic and more spells known. Keep in mind even if you can't find a good spell to upcast (which you usually can) you can still trade your high level slots directly for sorcery points you can use with metamagic. At 9th level (4S/5W) for example you have 1 5th and 3 4th level slots you do not have spells for. You can turn those into 16 sorcery points (not at once obviously). That is enough to quicken 8 other spells (with 1 point left) or give enemies disadvantage on 5 spells with a point to spare or to twin a bunch and it is on top of the 4 SPs you already have.
For example, put this on a bladesinger and she is using both a spell and an attack cantrip just about every turn. She can quicken blur or PEG or haste in the middle of combat without losing a turn. Alternatively quicken a spell and then hide.
You talked earlier about the great 3rd level spells and you are right about that, meanwhile 4th level spells are largely mediocre. This character at level 9 could cast something like Fear using heightened spell and give enemies disadvantage on using the sorcery points from a 4th level slot and still have a sorcery point to spare!
Charisma does not matter for the number of spells known on a sorcerer and it will not matter for casting the ones you get with this build. If you have played a high level wizard you know one of the biggest difficulty is keeping the good 1st level spells prepared. Specifically I am talking about Silvery Barbs, Shield, Absorb Elements and Feather Fall. You want those spells all the way to level 20, but at high levels keeping them all prepared gets difficult. Depending on the build you also may want mage armor. None of those spells care about your charisma. You want these spells prepared the whole game and you can't get them with a cleric multiclass or any other multiclass except sorcerer.
Multiclassing Artificer will not only cost you higher level spells it will cost higher level slots as well. If it is bad not having higher level spells known, it is worse not having higher level spell slots. That said Artificer can be a great multiclass option, especially if you want a little diversity and a pet or a cannon on the battlefield. Unlike cleric, their is good and usable spells through level 20 (but not quite as good as sorcerers) and you can prepare spells and get more of them than a sorcerer. But it is not going to bring nearly as much to your spellcasting as metamagic will.
Back to Sorcerer, if you are a clockwork soul you can also get PEG and Armor of Agathys as additionals, both solid. You talked about upcasting, AOA in particular upcasts very well all the way to 8th level and it can be put under a contingency as a 5th level cast. Upcast AOA is going to be better than any armor proficiency you can get through a multiclass, and with the exception of cleric any multiclass you go to for armor is going to cost you spell slots.
Doing Wizard first way would be MUCH less effective. Doing Wizard first forces you to get those good 1st level spells in your wizard book or to play the game without them all until level 7. You want those spells at level 3-4 and there is little downside to being a sorcerer at these levels when you can keep sleep at levels 1-3, and potentially magic missile and use a weapon instead of cantrips when you are not casting. You also lose out on constitution proficiency if you do wizard first and you get metamagic later in the game, metamagic earlier is better because of the high level slots you have.
Doing sorcerer less than 3 would mean no metamagic, so there is not really a good build with a 2-level dip IMO. If you are going to take 3, 4th level gives you a feat, while also giving you an extra sorcery point, extra spell and costing no slots.
All of the spells I mentioned here are great spells, usable the entire game and they work the same whether charisma is an 8 or a 20.
No if you are going to play a Wizard with a Sorcerer dip this is the ideal way to do it. Aside from skill checks, there is no benefit to improving charisma beyond 13. Your points are usually better spent elsewhere (even on off-stats like Wisdom because there are more wisdom saves).
That is the mechanics, if I am wrong tell me where specifically I am wrong instead of just claiming I am wrong without offering any specific examples.
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