D&D 5E Further Future D&D Product Speculation

[Mercurius]

As for speculating on future products in general, I think it is crucial to keep in mind the bottom line: what WotC thinks will make the most money. I'm not making a value judgment on this either way, just that this has to be kept in mind, in a way that isn't as central to small publishers and boutique game companies.

So while I empathize and largely agree with @Ruin Explorer's concerns about the new "slipcase model," it will really come down to how well it sells - and if it is more profitable than the publishing settings as hardcovers.

One speculation is that the slipcase is essentially an "all-in-one" product. Presumably, if you have the core rulebooks, you can use the slipcases without needing anything else. Now this is true of just about any product: every adventure is complete in and of itself, and the setting books provide guidance and/or small adventures to get you going. But I think the slipcase is doubling-down on the idea that every product (or at least every slipcase) is a complete campaign set in and of itself. And unlike the adventure books, it is designed to keep on playing after the adventure is complete (some adventures do include guidelines on this, but not as much as Spelljammer presumably will).

There is risk, however. By coming three different types of books, while at the same time both reducing content (page-count) and increasing price, the risk is that collectors of different types of books will be turned off. I mean, if you primarily buy setting books like myself, a 64-page setting book plus other stuff that is of less interest for $70 is a lot less alluring than a 250-300+ page dedicated setting book for $50. Similarly if you mostly want the adventure or monsters.

I imagine we won't know if the slip-case format is a success or not until after the next slip-case comes out. Meaning, lots of people could buy Spelljammer, then be disappointed with its content (or lack of specific content) and be soured on the next round, especially if they stick to the 64 x 3 format. But we shall see.

 

[overgeeked]

A bit more on why I think FR is (far) more unlikely than GH, and even maybe that it would be unwise for WotC to publish Greyhawk.

If they go with "Greyhawk classic," they'll make long-time fans happy, and maybe bring on a few new fans, but it is likely too different from contemporary D&D to please the new fan-base.

WotC specifically said that they hadn't done or weren't planning on doing Greyhawk because the core assumptions of the setting were so close to default 5E.

The effect would be somewhat similar to playing an old black-and-white film to a Zennial.

Weird. My kid is younger than that and loves black & white movies.

If they created some kind of "new Greyhawk" with contemporary sensibilities in mind, they would upset the long-term fan-base, and probably not be offering anything substantially new to the larger base that they couldn't find in the Realms or Exandria.

WotC clearly doesn't care about updating settings and the opinions of fans in that regard. They'll do whatever they think will sell. If they think Greyhawk would sell, they'll make it. But they will make it with modern sensibilities in mind. They won't put out "offensive" content just to keep old fans happy. They literally do the opposite. Update things with an eye for being inclusive, grognards be damned. Which is the right approach, honestly.

 

[Mercurius]

Let's remember there are great spaces in Oerth(Greyhawk) haven't explored yet. This may important to explain where is from new PC races or classes (for example the updated version of the ki martial adepts).

But again, why? If you expand Greyhawk just to insert new stuff in, you run into the same problem I mentioned: it neither pleases GH purists, nor does it offer anything particularly new that new players would want over more FR or Exandria.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Wheeeee setting speculation, my favorite thing!

I think Parmandur is right on a lot of stuff in his OP. There are some things a disagree with, but I think I'll just provide my own thoughts on each setting. I'm actually going to use the "ye old" setting poll from way back.

D&D Monthly Survey | Dungeons & Dragons

dnd.wizards.com

They fall into three distinct clusters, which I'll call the "Popular," "Average" and "Unpopular."

Popular: Eberron, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape, and the Forgotten Realms
Average: Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Spelljammer
Unpopular: Everything Else

So I'll take about each setting seperately, using this as a framework.

Mystara: I don't think this is happening, unless it's making a cameo in an Adventure Compilation that updates old modules (Ghosts of Salmtarsh, Tale from the Yawning Portal style). It's just not that popular in the poll, it's got a lot of weird problematic elements to it from adapting lots of real-world cultures very closely... it's high risk, low reward.

Birthright: Also unmentioned in the poll, and considered unpopular. It's not as problematic as Mystara, but I also think its strengths (mass combat, domain management) can be handled by other settings fairly easily. Dragonlance is already tackling mass combat, and I think Domain Management could be done well by Greyhawk, or even Forgotten Realms. I don't think it's happening, just not popular enough.

Spelljammer: It's getting a big release soon, and it's being marketed as three books. It's got the setting, PC options, monsters and an adventure... highly unlikely to me it will be getting revisited anytime soon after its release.

Dragonlance: I think it's possible this gets a true setting book, as its upcoming release is just the battlegame and an adventure. Still fairly unlikely to me, but very possible.

Greyhawk: It got Ghosts of Saltmarsh, but this was a few years back so a new book seems possible. I don't think a slipcase is a good fit here; doesn't have a ton of unique monsters or PC options to me. I think an adventure of some kind, or another update of old adventures set here, makes a lot of sense. Revisiting mass combat or domain management here makes sense too, and it works for the 50th anniversary. A lot of promise but also not a lot of uniqueness, so mixed bag.

Eberron: It's got a chunky setting book. It can be expanded to other continents, maybe more adventures, but with Keith Baker making DMsGuild material I don't see why the D&D Team wants to tackle this material themselves. Pretty unlikely for a revisit IMO.

Ravenloft: It's gotten a setting book fairly recently. I think it could be expanded somewhat with an adventure book, or a horror adventure compilation, but I won't speculate on this much. Possible, also easy to not revisit.

Forgotten Realms: Although D&D books have moved away from FR since Icewind Dale/Candlekeep, I don't think it'll abandon it completely. It makes sense for a slipcase in some ways, but I think it more likely it will get revisited in adventures like in the past. A huge, Faerun wide setting book is possible, but if it hasn't happened yet I don't really get why it'd happen now either. And it's got micro-settings within it like Al-Qadim and Kara-tur, but these are problematic in some ways, and I think it more likely that the D&D team would prefer to make something new from the ground up instead of salvaging these. I think FR will get new books in the future, but I trend more to the hybrid micro-settings/adventure like Tomb of Annihilation and Icewind Dale.

Dark Sun: Now the good stuff. Yes, this settings got its blemishes, most notably slavery. However, this is something D&D hasn't shied away from (Out of the Abyss has too much of it frankly), and I believe if the setting is developed with cultural consultation, it can be updated pretty easily. Well it be rebooted entirely? It's happened before, and I think it's fairly likely so it meets some 5E rules standards. It's got loads of potential PC options, psionics are a potential new class, loads of new monsters, easy to write a new unique adventure for... compared to Mystara, I think this is medium risk, high reward. Easy contender for slipcase format. I don't think it makes much sense for mass combat (armies exist but they don't clash frequently), but ironically D&D Onslaught (kind of gladatorial in some ways) weirdly fits. And it's one of the two remaining most popular settings, I think it's happening it's just a question of when not if.

Planescape: This is an easy homerun. Not that problematic, everyone seems to love it, lots of potential PC options and adventure opportunities... easily can be made a slipcase. Doesn't fit mass combat at all. So much to love, it's low risk and high reward. Very likely the next classic setting.

 

[Mercurius]

WotC specifically said that they hadn't done or weren't planning on doing Greyhawk because the core assumptions of the setting were so close to default 5E.

Weird. My kid is younger than that and loves black & white movies.

Everyone is different, of course. My 13-year old has a knee-jerk reaction against films that are from before 1990 or so (and 90s are borderline). I'm hoping/assuming she'll grow out of it, though!

But don't miss the forest for the trees. I was using that as analogy, which is the main point. Older D&D is like black and white, newer D&D like full color. Not a value judgment either way, mind you.

WotC clearly doesn't care about updating settings and the opinions of fans in that regard. They'll do whatever they think will sell. If they think Greyhawk would sell, they'll make it. But they will make it with modern sensibilities in mind. They won't put out "offensive" content just to keep old fans happy. They literally do the opposite. Update things with an eye for being inclusive, grognards be damned. Which is the right approach, honestly.

Yes, agreed on the economic bottom line - which is why I think FR is more likely, as I said.

As for "offensive" content, that is an underlying implication in these discussions, but one that doesn't prove particularly fruitful. But I think part of the problem is any assumption made towards some kind of objective or agreed upon litmus test for what is or is not offensive. There's a lot of gray in-between the obvious extremes of "offensive to almost no one" and "offensive to almost everyone," and the gray areas are always shifting. They can play it safe, but then you start sanitizing older stuff in ways that take away from the original thematic content (e.g. muls in Dark Sun).

But I'm not primarily talking about such content, but more the other stuff: e.g. do dragonborn have a place in Greyhawk? Are there starlight elves? Etc.

I'm all for re-visioning old stuff, but I also wonder if there's a point where it is just best to move on and create something new. This critique can be waged at Hollywood, which seems far more interested on re-booting (or re-re-booting) old franchises than it is in creating new ones. And each re-boot is remade with new sensibilities in mind. To me this is just creatively lazy.

 

[Mercurius]

Wheeeee setting speculation, my favorite thing!

I think Parmandur is right on a lot of stuff in his OP. There are some things a disagree with, but I think I'll just provide my own thoughts on each setting. I'm actually going to use the "ye old" setting poll from way back.

D&D Monthly Survey | Dungeons & Dragons

dnd.wizards.com

They fall into three distinct clusters, which I'll call the "Popular," "Average" and "Unpopular."

Popular: Eberron, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape, and the Forgotten Realms
Average: Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Spelljammer
Unpopular: Everything Else

So I'll take about each setting seperately, using this as a framework.

Mystara: I don't think this is happening, unless it's making a cameo in an Adventure Compilation that updates old modules (Ghosts of Salmtarsh, Tale from the Yawning Portal style). It's just not that popular in the poll, it's got a lot of weird problematic elements to it from adapting lots of real-world cultures very closely... it's high risk, low reward.

Birthright: Also unmentioned in the poll, and considered unpopular. It's not as problematic as Mystara, but I also think its strengths (mass combat, domain management) can be handled by other settings fairly easily. Dragonlance is already tackling mass combat, and I think Domain Management could be done well by Greyhawk, or even Forgotten Realms. I don't think it's happening, just not popular enough.

Spelljammer: It's getting a big release soon, and it's being marketed as three books. It's got the setting, PC options, monsters and an adventure... highly unlikely to me it will be getting revisited anytime soon after its release.

Dragonlance: I think it's possible this gets a true setting book, as its upcoming release is just the battlegame and an adventure. Still fairly unlikely to me, but very possible.

Greyhawk: It got Ghosts of Saltmarsh, but this was a few years back so a new book seems possible. I don't think a slipcase is a good fit here; doesn't have a ton of unique monsters or PC options to me. I think an adventure of some kind, or another update of old adventures set here, makes a lot of sense. Revisiting mass combat or domain management here makes sense too, and it works for the 50th anniversary. A lot of promise but also not a lot of uniqueness, so mixed bag.

Eberron: It's got a chunky setting book. It can be expanded to other continents, maybe more adventures, but with Keith Baker making DMsGuild material I don't see why the D&D Team wants to tackle this material themselves. Pretty unlikely for a revisit IMO.

Ravenloft: It's gotten a setting book fairly recently. I think it could be expanded somewhat with an adventure book, or a horror adventure compilation, but I won't speculate on this much. Possible, also easy to not revisit.

Forgotten Realms: Although D&D books have moved away from FR since Icewind Dale/Candlekeep, I don't think it'll abandon it completely. It makes sense for a slipcase in some ways, but I think it more likely it will get revisited in adventures like in the past. A huge, Faerun wide setting book is possible, but if it hasn't happened yet I don't really get why it'd happen now either. And it's got micro-settings within it like Al-Qadim and Kara-tur, but these are problematic in some ways, and I think it more likely that the D&D team would prefer to make something new from the ground up instead of salvaging these. I think FR will get new books in the future, but I trend more to the hybrid micro-settings/adventure like Tomb of Annihilation and Icewind Dale.

Dark Sun: Now the good stuff. Yes, this settings got its blemishes, most notably slavery. However, this is something D&D hasn't shied away from (Out of the Abyss has too much of it frankly), and I believe if the setting is developed with cultural consultation, it can be updated pretty easily. Well it be rebooted entirely? It's happened before, and I think it's fairly likely so it meets some 5E rules standards. It's got loads of potential PC options, psionics are a potential new class, loads of new monsters, easy to write a new unique adventure for... compared to Mystara, I think this is medium risk, high reward. Easy contender for slipcase format. I don't think it makes much sense for mass combat (armies exist but they don't clash frequently), but ironically D&D Onslaught (kind of gladatorial in some ways) weirdly fits. And it's one of the two remaining most popular settings, I think it's happening it's just a question of when not if.

Planescape: This is an easy homerun. Not that problematic, everyone seems to love it, lots of potential PC options and adventure opportunities... easily can be made a slipcase. Doesn't fit mass combat at all. So much to love, it's low risk and high reward. Very likely the next classic setting.

Good stuff, and I mostly agree with your determinations. The only thing I'd add is that I think we need to highlight what place any new setting product would have in the larger 5E context of products. For instance, Spelljammer might have only had medium popularity, but it expands the game substantially - in a way that, say, Greyhawk or Mystara wouldn't.

As for the Realms, I think that is one case in which publishing it as a slip-case would be a shame. We already have tons of FR adventures and there's really no need for a bestiary. Either a full-on big setting book ala FRCS, or possibly a slip-case with three setting-specific books: say, the Dalelands, Faerun, and Beyond Faerun. Or something like that (or maybe, more likely, the Dalelands, Faerun, and some kind of Myth Drannor/Anauroch sandbox adventure).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

. I mean, if you primarily buy setting books like myself, a 64-page setting book plus other stuff that is of less interest for $70 is a lot less alluring than a 250-300+ page dedicated setting book for $50. Similarly if you mostly want the adventure or monsters.

Exactly. It's very hard for me to see if myself purchasing a $70 (or even $50) 192-page book that devotes 128 pages to monsters and an adventure. I don't need any more monsters - I'm barely using the ones we have! And I definitely don't need any WotC-written adventures (I know some people love them but...). Especially if the 64 pages of setting are further cut into by player material.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Good stuff, and I mostly agree with your determinations. The only thing I'd add is that I think we need to highlight what place any new setting product would have in the larger 5E context of products. For instance, Spelljammer might have only had medium popularity, but it expands the game substantially - in a way that, say, Greyhawk or Mystara wouldn't.

As for the Realms, I think that is one case in which publishing it as a slip-case would be a shame. We already have tons of FR adventures and there's really no need for a bestiary. Either a full-on big setting book ala FRCS, or possibly a slip-case with three setting-specific books: say, the Dalelands, Faerun, and Beyond Faerun. Or something like that (or maybe, more likely, the Dalelands, Faerun, and some kind of Myth Drannor/Anauroch sandbox adventure).

I very much agree. Greyhawk fit a model much like Dragonlance did in my mind. In that, if it got a setting book like Eberron, it wouldn't expand D&D much. But Dragonlance getting it's mass combat game makes it a lot more expansive, and I think you could do the same to Greyhawk with say Domain Management (and Colville's S&F K&W show you can do that).

But Dark Sun and Planescape expand scope way more intuitively, so I think they're the most likely.

Realms is so finicky to me. Technically, it doesn't need a new book at all, but there's so much of it that it works for most types of books that could be made. I'm fairly confident though that Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur are not getting touched though, that's a dumpster fire and D&D knows it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I mostly agree. I did find that the adventures in the Ravenloft and Eberron books were a good use of space, but that was because they were just long enough to show the flavour of the setting without eating too much space. Using up fully a third of the page count seems excessive.

And I also agree with you about the adventures in general. "Lost Mine of Phandelver" is great, but it's a shining exception, IMO.

Quite, and Eberron had a lot of space, at 320 pages, not far off double Spelljammer. VRGtR felt a bit like the page count was impinging on what it could do, but it was okay.

 

[Parmandur]

Two things are both (potentially) true at once:

One, it is far more likely that the "revisit" is FR over GH, for reasons others have stated - but also the simple fact that the majority of the current player base knows the Realms, and only GH through Saltmarsh. If you're looking at likely buyers and the product line as a whole, FR makes a lot more sense.

Two, WotC is (sometimes) full of surprises. Who predicted Ravnica would be the first Magic setting? A few years ago, who would have thought Spelljammer would be revisited? Etc. It is also theoretically possible that they'd publish GH as a passion project.

I also think Planescape is more likely than Dark Sun, with everything else far in the distance. That said, if the battle games do well, I could see them resurrecting Birthright, but probably not until after the 50th anniversary. Meaning, there are limited slots in 2023-24, and there's almost zero chance that Mystara or Birthright or anything else would come before PS or DS.

So my guess for settings:

2023: Planescape, New Setting, Magic Setting
2024: Forgotten Realms, New Setting

I think you underestimate the marketing appeal of the history if the game: WitC can take advantage of that, while adjusting the Setting as needed. They have had no trouble doing so thus far.

Also, they have a potential secret weapon: if Luke Gygax is involved, similar to Ajit George with Radiant Citadel, then the Gugaxian authenticity is probably enough for most of the GaryCon crowd.

But Forgotten Realms would also work. Hence, Avatar bet, let's make huge action a little spicy