D&D 5E Further Future D&D Product Speculation

[Quickleaf]

A bit more on why I think FR is (far) more unlikely than GH, and even maybe that it would be unwise for WotC to publish Greyhawk.

If they go with "Greyhawk classic," they'll make long-time fans happy, and maybe bring on a few new fans, but it is likely too different from contemporary D&D to please the new fan-base. The effect would be somewhat similar to playing an old black-and-white film to a Zennial. Maybe a very small minority would like it, but most would find it too old-fashioned and dislike the lack of color.

If they created some kind of "new Greyhawk" with contemporary sensibilities in mind, they would upset the long-term fan-base, and probably not be offering anything substantially new to the larger base that they couldn't find in the Realms or Exandria.

Of the two, I think the former is the better choice - but probably doesn't make good economic sense, or at least before or instead of the Forgotten Realms.

Good to see you on here, Mercurius!

A while back I pitched an idea for Greyhawk in 5e which would be focused on the thing that grognards & newbies have in common – we all love to world build (pretty sure polls confirm that homebrew worlds leads over FR in popularity).

I don't have my old post handy, but in it I dug up a bunch of quotes that ENWorld compiled from Gary Gygax in which he described his design intent behind Greyhawk being leaving lots of space for the DM's own creations. A "Greyhawk" book might, yes, include Greyhawk the setting as an example, but also really double down on the idea of it being a world builder's supplement. I'm imagining books like Worlds Without Numbers with an OSR influence where random tables, light hints, and bullet-points of possible answers to mysteries are presented as fuel for a DM's own creative spark. So, yeah there's Furyondy and some of the politics around the Shield Lands, but there's even more resources for a DM to "fill in the blanks" themself.

Not sure about the state of legal affairs regarding Greyhawk. I recall Robert Kuntz alluding to some of that on his posts here, so this might all be a pipe dream, but I wonder if this approach might be mutually agreeable to thread some kind of legal needle.

 

[Quickleaf]

I think you underestimate the marketing appeal of the history if the game: WitC can take advantage of that, while adjusting the Setting as needed. They have had no trouble doing so thus far.

Also, they have a potential secret weapon: if Luke Gygax is involved, similar to Ajit George with Radiant Citadel, then the Gugaxian authenticity is probably enough for most of the GaryCon crowd.

But Forgotten Realms would also work. Hence, Avatar bet, let's make huge action a little spicy

Just got to say, I've never had the pleasure of attending GaryCon or meeting Luke, but he just seems like a stand up guy and wonderful DM whenever I listen to him speak on podcasts.

 

[Parmandur]

Insert a given D&D race, class, feature, or setting for X, and you will have now distilled every conversation on this forum about converting anything from D&D's past to 5e to the above. Yet WotC manages to convert stuff for all the same. Maybe this line of thinking does more harm than good?

Very well put. Sky is the limit.

 

[Parmandur]

Extenuating circumstances though. A new novel trilogy coming out. They'd be bad at their job if they didn't release game products that capitalized on that.

That has nothing to do with this product, kind of aggressively so.

 

[darjr]

How many would have bet WotC thought Spelljammer would make them lots of money?

 

[Parmandur]

I'll just leave this flyer for the Compulsive Avatar Betting 12-Step Group over here, in case anyone might benefit. You know, no one in particular, just whoever might pass by...

I CAN QUIT ANYTIME I WANT!

 

[Parmandur]

We shouldn't forget two potential spin-off for FR: Kara-Tur and al-Quadim. Of course WotC should take care because today people have got different point of view, and even Asian people could suffer predujices from others from the same country but a different region.

Why not an actual-play show set in Kara-Tur and the players cute aspiring-idols or veteran seiyus (voice actress working in anime)?

I suggest the mechanatrix, the planetouched race from Mechanus. Could female bariaus to be redesigned as potential monster waifus?

Let's remember there are great spaces in Oerth(Greyhawk) haven't explored yet. This may important to explain where is from new PC races or classes (for example the updated version of the ki martial adepts).

Justice Armin is a product lead now: he's well positioned to reimagine Al'Quadim.

 

[Parmandur]

As for speculating on future products in general, I think it is crucial to keep in mind the bottom line: what WotC thinks will make the most money. I'm not making a value judgment on this either way, just that this has to be kept in mind, in a way that isn't as central to small publishers and boutique game companies.

So while I empathize and largely agree with @Ruin Explorer's concerns about the new "slipcase model," it will really come down to how well it sells - and if it is more profitable than the publishing settings as hardcovers.

One speculation is that the slipcase is essentially an "all-in-one" product. Presumably, if you have the core rulebooks, you can use the slipcases without needing anything else. Now this is true of just about any product: every adventure is complete in and of itself, and the setting books provide guidance and/or small adventures to get you going. But I think the slipcase is doubling-down on the idea that every product (or at least every slipcase) is a complete campaign set in and of itself. And unlike the adventure books, it is designed to keep on playing after the adventure is complete (some adventures do include guidelines on this, but not as much as Spelljammer presumably will).

There is risk, however. By coming three different types of books, while at the same time both reducing content (page-count) and increasing price, the risk is that collectors of different types of books will be turned off. I mean, if you primarily buy setting books like myself, a 64-page setting book plus other stuff that is of less interest for $70 is a lot less alluring than a 250-300+ page dedicated setting book for $50. Similarly if you mostly want the adventure or monsters.

I imagine we won't know if the slip-case format is a success or not until after the next slip-case comes out. Meaning, lots of people could buy Spelljammer, then be disappointed with its content (or lack of specific content) and be soured on the next round, especially if they stick to the 64 x 3 format. But we shall see.

One factor to consider about the slipcases: most people aren't going to pay FLGS prices, they will be paying Target and Amazon prices, which will probably be closet to $40.

 

[darjr]

Just got to say, I've never had the pleasure of attending GaryCon or meeting Luke, but he just seems like a stand up guy and wonderful DM whenever I listen to him speak on podcasts.

Our first trip to GaryCon, I signed up to run 30+ hours of games over the long weekend. My two friends also. When we arrived we found out the hotel had given our room away.

Through no fault of the convention, we were homeless. Luke found out. He put us up in the resort in the guest wing, we were a room away from Tim Kask and others.

Yea, Luke is awesome.

 

[Parmandur]

WotC specifically said that they hadn't done or weren't planning on doing Greyhawk because the core assumptions of the setting were so close to default 5E.

Weird. My kid is younger than that and loves black & white movies.

WotC clearly doesn't care about updating settings and the opinions of fans in that regard. They'll do whatever they think will sell. If they think Greyhawk would sell, they'll make it. But they will make it with modern sensibilities in mind. They won't put out "offensive" content just to keep old fans happy. They literally do the opposite. Update things with an eye for being inclusive, grognards be damned. Which is the right approach, honestly.

Greyhawk may very well not make sense as a Ravnica/Eberron style book. But a Spelljammer-like slipcase product? That may change things, and appeal to the oddball children who like black & white movies and such. Really, I constantly find myself amazed at what random old things my kids take a liking to.