D&D 5E 5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?

[Undrave]

And that would be silly, and totally against encounter building. I've had a quick look in E2 and the most I could find was 10 ghouls (abyssal horde ghouls, level 26 ghouls... sigh) or 10 mercs (which I wonder where they found, these are identical mercenaries at level 24, rolls eyes).

40 ghouls would be equal to 10 standard monsters, so twice the regular XP budget of 5 standard monsters. It's not that impossible.

And he is still level 26, with defenses and attacks that make him deadly and invulnerable to characters at level 10 to 15 ? This is the part where it does not make sense, at least to me.

It doesn't have to 'make sense' in the world. It's a game, it make sense in the game rules and that's all that matters.

Except it's exactly the contrary, the rules of 4e dictate that you create minions of the appropriate level and create them for that purpose, so this is what drives your story. In 5e, I just decide that the story calls for a horde of orcs, I don't even have to look at the rules, I just use the orcs that I have, with the added bonus that they are not special bizarre orcs incredibly dangerous but very fragile, technically created out of the blue to satisfy arbitrary system constraints.

Those minions don't drive the story, they serve it? What exactly is so different between an Orc that dies to a single hit, except if you roll a 1 on your damage, or an Orc that dies in a single hit all the time? The Minions usually have different actions.

 

[CleverNickName]

It doesn't have to 'make sense' in the world. It's a game, it make sense in the game rules and that's all that matters.

I'd say they both matter. I mean, if we're being picky? I prefer everything to "make sense" according to both.

 

[pemerton]

A minion's single HP doesn't mean it only has 1 HP, it just means that its HP are too low to be worth tracking.

I see it a bit differently.

Hit points are a pacing device. That's it.

There's nothing "unrealistic" about a might hero slaying an ogre or a giant in one blow. Nor is there anything "unrealistic" about a giant or ogre putting up a struggle and being defeated only with great effort.

One way a RPG might make either outcome possible is via stochastic methods, for determining damage spreads vs hit point/resistance spreads. AD&D does it like that, for instance - damage rolls vs HD rolls. Rolemaster does it like this, but via critical rolls.

Another way a RPG might make either outcome possible is to build it in from the start. This is what 4e does. Minions are those who are slain in one blow. Standards and elites are those who (typically) can be defeated only with effort. This produces a different play experience from AD&D or RM: it guarantees the desired pacing by building it in.

Minions are just a game construct.

That's exactly my point

Everything involving hit points is a game construct. Likewise AC, damage spreads etc. A goristro demon having 310 hp, which makes it impossible for the mightiest 5e D&D hero to kill it with a single blow, is a game construct.

The goristro is constructed to make a single-blow kill impossible. The minion is constructed to make a single-blow kill certain. These are game design decisions about the pacing of combat. That's all.

 

[Manbearcat]

Its trivial to come up with creative, genre-appropriate fiction for why a "Ravenous Ghoul" might trigger automatic 5 HP damage in aura 1:

* The mere specter of the creature in such proximity might cause someone to blanch, wilt, or recoil (morale damage).

* The creature might move with such speed and implacability due their insatiable hunger that you're constantly fighting for wrist control of hands that are trying to grab your neck and push against jaws that are snapping at your throat (exhaustion damage).

* If you're divinely-sponsored or inclined toward natural order, the terrible, ethos-defiling animation of the creature before you may offend you deeply (creed damage).


If you've ever grappled with someone who has an endless gas-tank, brutal top-pressure, heavy hips, and single-minded will, its trivial to figure out a "sapping your staying power/capacity to fight" justification for the fiction of TTRPGing...because that is exactly what happens. Grappling with a ravenous ghoul would be hell even if you manage to stave of attack-after-attack-after-attack. It would wear you the hell down and quick.

Auras are some of the best part of 4e combat design. It creates an awesome layer of tactical overhead and, overwhelmingly (like in the Ravenous Ghoul case here) the aura 1 is not only easy to map onto the fiction but it makes perfect sense.

 

[Staffan]

This problem is not one of bounded accuracy, but of action economy, compounded by the "everything is about hit points" phenomenon above.

But "Everything is about hit points" is bounded accuracy. High-level monsters don't have appreciably better AC or attack bonuses, but instead deal and take more damage. That's the core concept of bounded accuracy.

If you can use 12 bugbears to provide the same challenge as a behir (both make a 7200 XP encounter), that goes both ways. The behir is no more challenging than 12 bugbears (in theory).

 

[Helldritch]

But "Everything is about hit points" is bounded accuracy. High-level monsters don't have appreciably better AC or attack bonuses, but instead deal and take more damage. That's the core concept of bounded accuracy.

If you can use 12 bugbears to provide the same challenge as a behir (both make a 7200 XP encounter), that goes both ways. The behir is no more challenging than 12 bugbears (in theory).

The behir might even be less challenging if you stick with the core rule. Those 12 bugbears have a higher damage potential, especially if they get the jump on the group. If spread out correctly, they might even put the lowest armored character in a dire situation.

 

[Lyxen]

um what!?!?

so I write my story and want 10 orcs... then I look to see if 10 solider elites work or if 3 soldier regular and 4 minions and 1 artillary elite with 2 skirmisher regualars... look at that they fit

Yep, and it's that technical choice that drives your story.

BS... if you cared about encountrt guidelinse in 4e why not 5e that STILL has guidelines...

Very fluffy ones, on purpose. I will count the number of orcs, I will not have to go and tailor orc minions of the appropriate level for the party. Because it's what 4e REQUIRES (and the only reason for which the encounter calculator is precise, it assumes that the level will be near that of the PCs).

there is nothing bizarre about minnions

Yes, there is. Why would orcs suddenly get an AC of 35 ? Why would they get incredible defenses on their saves ? And why, after all that, would they still die on the first blow received but totally ignore a huge fireball, not even singed if they made their saves thanks to huge bonuses that came about for no reason ?

At least the PCs have huge stats and magical armor and weapons and gear to explain the bonuses. But the adversaries are exactly like in WoW, it's another orc, just bigger and tougher for no other reason than it needs to be there to be an adversary.

I'll give you a simple example:

• Orc Raider: AC 17 ( Leather Armor, Int 8, Dex 15)
• Orc Warrior: AC 21 (Leather Armor, Int 8, Dex 11)

Can you explain why the Orc Warrior's AC is 4 points higher than the raider' one when he is wearing the same armor but has much lower dex ? Is he perchance wearing magical armor ? But then why can't I loot it of him ?

Can you explain why the raider has 46 hit points (enough to absorb many blows) but the warrior always dies on the first blow received although he is 3 times higher in level and way more dangerous (attacks at +14 instead of +6) ?

It's totally inconsistent with the world and with any explanation outside of "it's a game, and therefore it's a gamist concept".

then track what box of HP goes with what mini

Extremely easy, I put numbers on a sheet of paper in a pattern that roughly resembles the battlefield, or just grouping them.

 

[Lyxen]

40 ghouls would be equal to 10 standard monsters, so twice the regular XP budget of 5 standard monsters. It's not that impossible.

And have you run such an encounter ? I am pretty sure you have not, it would have been an absolute slaughter. In any case, it's not in E2 or any publication.

It doesn't have to 'make sense' in the world. It's a game, it make sense in the game rules and that's all that matters.

That's all what I wanted to hear, "It doesn't have to 'make sense' in the world." It just goes to show that we have very different conceptions of what a TTRPG is. Mine is not gamist, it's about roleplaying what is happening in the game world, not running technical encounters.

Those minions don't drive the story, they serve it? What exactly is so different between an Orc that dies to a single hit, except if you roll a 1 on your damage, or an Orc that dies in a single hit all the time? The Minions usually have different actions.

The minions are totally artificial constructs that don't have to make sense in the world. And although I understand that it pleases some people, it really is not what we are looking for in TTRPGs in general and D&D in particular. YCMV and all that.

 

[Staffan]

The behir might even be less challenging if you stick with the core rule. Those 12 bugbears have a higher damage potential, especially of they get the jump on the group. If spread out correctly, they might even put the lowest armored character in a dire situation.

True, but the bugbears are highly vulnerable to AOE damage, and unlike the behir their potential damage goes down rather rapidly once they start taking damage (more damage = fewer bugbears left = less damage from them). The behir deals full damage until it hits 0 hp.

I'll give you a simple example:

• Orc Raider: AC 17 ( Leather Armor, Int 8, Dex 15)
• Orc Warrior: AC 21 (Leather Armor, Int 8, Dex 11)

Can you explain why the Orc Warrior's AC is 4 points higher than the raider' one when he is wearing the same armor but has much lower dex ? Is he perchance wearing magical armor ? But then why can't I loot it of him ?

Because monster AC in 4e has nothing to do with equipment or stats, only with level and role.

4e makes not the slightest attempt to be simulationist, and it makes no apologies for not doing so.

 

[Lyxen]

But "Everything is about hit points" is bounded accuracy. High-level monsters don't have appreciably better AC or attack bonuses, but instead deal and take more damage. That's the core concept of bounded accuracy.

I would argue that the core concept is the bounding of bonuses. The fact that it translates partially (since, on average, higher level monsters still have stronger defenses0 to hit points is only a consequence, and the "everything is about hit points" is not only about bounded accuracy and resistance, it's also due to the system simplification, fewer status effects etc.

If you can use 12 bugbears to provide the same challenge as a behir (both make a 7200 XP encounter), that goes both ways. The behir is no more challenging than 12 bugbears (in theory).

Yes, completely in theory, as it depends hugely on the circumstances of the encounter, and the encounter calculator is very flimsy when dealing with extremes like this.