D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

[Micah Sweet]

Oh, it's been a persistent claim since the days of 3.5 at least if not earlier. 4e was where it really got blatant and widespread though...and the irony of course is that the text explicitly tells you not to do that, and rather tells you to give mixes of challenges from easy (e.g. roughly level-4) to very hard (e.g. roughly level+5, maybe level+7 if you're feeling particularly spicy). Many, many, many people tried to spin its (very effective) XP budget rules as mandating perfect lockstep encounter levels, or (hilariously) claiming that it worked like Skyrim where every encounter would automatically level up to match the party no matter what!

The 4e era was full of some really choice strawmen.

Why do you think all those people did that though? That's an awful big group to form that opinion (enough to make WotC doubt the editions success) to come out of nowhere. Something in 4th ed led people to feel that way, even if it wasn't true.

 

[Lanefan]

Or the group is all reasonable adults and that doesn't happen.

Those parameters have already (most likely) gone out the window if two are playing 9s and two are playing 5s in the first place.

Me, I'd rather rein in the 9s - harshly, if need be - in order to keep the game more grounded for a longer time.

 

[Jer]

It probably is not wise for me to continue to comment on game I'm not familiar with, but yeah, it doesn't seem like the sort of game I would like.

One thing to keep in mind - it isn't the game that puts Batman and Superman at the same power level - it's the writers of the DC Heroes supplement that Green Ronin released. The game doesn't require it, it's the game designers trying to model how the comics universe actually operates via game rules.

If you don't care for that model the solution would be to fix their model of Batman and reduce him from PL 12 down to a PL of 8 or so. PL 10 is 4-color supers, PL 8 is "golden age masked men".

M&M does a good job of trying to model comic books. It's the comics that are absurd, not the game

 

[Vaalingrade]

Those parameters have already (most likely) gone out the window if two are playing 9s and two are playing 5s in the first place.

Some people play wizards.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Keep in mind that Mutants and Masterminds doesn't do hit points. Superman punching you (your character) is forcing a Toughness save to keep from being KOed from his strength. Batman hitting with the same level of effect is, instead, forcing the same difficulty of Toughness save to keep from being KOed because he's chopping you in a nerve cluster.

And yet, M&M does have Power Levels, and Batman and Superman aren't on the same one.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Those parameters have already (most likely) gone out the window if two are playing 9s and two are playing 5s in the first place.

Me, I'd rather rein in the 9s - harshly, if need be - in order to keep the game more grounded for a longer time.

How would your 9's react to being nerfed? I don't think mine would appreciate it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

85 into 'my' superman... 95 in zero hour 200X in infinite crisis, 20xx in nu52 then rebirth then death metal... so atleast 6 times in my life maybe double that
edit when was the bronze age then?

I like the versions from the original films and Smallville, with a bit of the Animated Series thrown in. My Batman is almost entirely from BAS.

 

[Jer]

And yet, M&M does have Power Levels, and Batman and Superman aren't on the same one.

Barely - Superman is a 15, Batman is a 12. Those are close enough to be in the same combat, and close enough that Batman could beat Superman in an unfair fight.

Batman and Supergirl are at the same PL.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Why do you think all those people did that though? That's an awful big group to form that opinion (enough to make WotC doubt the editions success) to come out of nowhere. Something in 4th ed led people to feel that way, even if it wasn't true.

"This false stereotype has to have been rooted in something" is not a particularly persuasive argument when many, many people were quite ready to volunteer the facts, and even more were willing to make strident claims despite OPENLY ADMITTING to having never looked at it in the first place.

People were happy to uncritically accept crappy things about 4e, because it replaced 3.5e and they wanted a reason to oppose it. I would know. I was one of those people for a couple years.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

What you're not giving credit to is the concept that yes, in most situations anyone can contribute, even if not much.

You're damned right that's what I'm not giving credit to. I'm giving it exactly as much credit as it merits.