D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

[GMforPowergamers]

No. I have no interest in DMing 5e, homebrew or otherwise. Were I to actually run an edition of D&D, it would be 4e. (Or maybe, if you count it as "D&D," 13th Age.)

I find that the mixing of the two makes an okaish homebrew... if I could make it work I would use the escalation die in every roll20 game I play (but codeing it into the sheets has proved too tough for me)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, I mean, I did do that, but I can give it again. Different system, so it obviously would need translation, but the fundamental concept is sound. Specifically, the Dungeon World Fighter class and its Bend Bars, Lift Gates move.

As a quick preface, so mechanical differences are explained in advance: In DW, which IIRC you are at least somewhat familiar with, players roll 2d6+MOD for almost everything (stat mods are always three capital letters; stat scores are the full text of the stat's name). This is exploited to give ranges of success: rolling 10+ is a full success/hit (so you get all or almost all of what you want), 6- is a miss/fail (so you don't get what you want and something bad happens), and 7-9 is a partial success (which can mean "get what you want + complication," "get part of what you want," or "get a weakened or lesser version of what you want," among other things.) Many moves have a structure where you have a list of roughly 3-5 options, but how many you get from that list depends on how well you roll, e.g. if there are four options, a 7-9 may give you two picks, while a 10+ might give three (and later improvements might allow you to get all four on 12+, or choose to enhance one of those benefits, or the like.)

With that out of the way, here's the text for Bend Bars, Lift Gates:

This is a default move of the Fighter playbook. No one else gets this move, as playbook rules (in the base game, anyway) are mostly unique to each class. The main exceptions are Cleric and Wizard, since their "Cast a Spell" move is essentially identical apart from class-specific flourishes about the costs of mediocre or bad rolls. Other than that specific move, however, each class gets its own unique moves.

Now. This is clearly an exploration-focused move, albeit one that might have very niche uses in combat. Things like "nothing of value is damaged" and "it doesn't make an inordinate amount of noise" are really only useful if you're trying to avoid detection or not sacrifice useful resources, which is rarely (not never, but rarely) relevant once combat has already begun. Further, even with a 10+, you only get to choose 3--even on a "full" success, you can't get everything you might want. (I have instituted, as part of my "Legendary" beyond-max-level rules, a new additional success category, "superlative success," for when you roll 13+, in other words, beyond the limits of ordinary mortals. This may grant all options from a list, or enhance the benefits of a move in some other way.)

I consider this an excellent example of a clear, useful, Fighter-specific ability that offers a defined area of competence. Its utility applies to some (but not all) stealthy situations, something Fighters are otherwise not necessarily good at, and it encourages Fighters to think about the environment around them, not just the threats that might need to be killinated. By design, it doesn't give you everything, but it may be very useful.

Spoiler: Aside about other Fighter moves and other playbooks

This is far from the only utility-focused move Fighters can take, it's just the only one they automatically start with. Their other starting moves make them able to use heavy armor without penalty, and give them a Signature Weapon which they can choose the details of. (It may be worth noting, here, that DW explicitly recommends against having more than one player play the same playbook, because it can lead to the two characters feeling too samey.) Giving some brief summaries of their other utility move options (which are purely elective; it is quite possible to play a Fighter that never takes a single additional utility move): Heirloom (roll+CHA; consult the spirits in your Signature Weapon for guidance, maybe being asked questions in return; 10+, get a detailed answer, 7-9, get a vague impression), Interrogator (when you Parley, a generic move, using threats of violence as leverage, roll+STR instead of +CHA), and debatably Through Death's Eyes (when you go into battle, roll+WIS: 10+, name someone who will live AND someone who will die; 7-9, name someone who will live OR someone who will die; 6-, you see your own death and take a penalty. Please pick NPCs, not player characters, and "the GM will make sure your vision comes true if it's even remotely possible.")

All of these are unique to the Fighter playbook. In theory, a character can pick them up if they take a multiclass move (most classes get one or two multiclass move opportunities, some narrower than others), but apart from that, only Fighters get these things. Barbarians, by contrast, get a completely different set of moves with utility benefits, and very little in the way of starting utility. (For example, there's a move that just straight-up declares you've travelled pretty much everywhere, so any time you enter a region or city etc., you can ask the DM about the traditions, rituals, etc. of that place and "they'll tell you what you need to know.")

Again: this is from a different system, and so it cannot JUST be ported over wholesale, that's not how game design works. But it provides a clear example of something that can be Fighter-unique and open-ended in its use, without being "good at everything." Bend Bars, Lift Gates is useless for forging a document, deceiving a guard, persuading a noble/royal, or surviving in winter. In a heavier system like D&D, I would hope that the equivalent of Bend Bars, Lift Gates would be one option among a small handful (e.g., perhaps you could pick your choice of two from BB,LG, a "survive the trenches" kind of thing, and a "I may not be good with words, but my buddy is, you should really listen to them" kind of thing). Again, not enough to be "good at everything." Not even enough to cover all areas of a relatively narrow thing like "exploring a ruin"; BB,LG offers no direct utility for, say, climbing around a wide spike-pit by clinging to the dilapidated walls. But it's enough to give a clear, defined area of competence that can be leveraged, and which players are encouraged to consider creatively and exploit.

Yes, you can give classes things like that. Though as D&D has ability scores (DW doesn't have anything similar IIRC) that are usually used to handle these sort of things, the feature should interact via them, instead of creating a disconnected parallel system. I think thematically Champion Fighter's Remarkable Athlete is similar, allowing character to excel at feats of strength. The issue just is that power-wise it is utterly lacklustre, but it shouldn't be too hart to design a similar but more powerful feature.

And I'm not opposed to giving martials features like that. I have said repeatedly that I'm for buffing martials. But that doesn't change the fact that there still will be areas in which the characters do not excel.

Yes, meaningfully. Everyone should be able to participate meaningfully. But this is not same than equally. The fighter can contribute in social scenes and a bard in fight scenes, but it is still fine if the fighter can contribute more in fight scenes and bard in social scenes.

This is what I said ages ago and you vehemently rejected it. The idea that some times some characters can contribute more. Even if your fighter had some feature that allowed them to do remarkable athletic feats, they might not have one that lets them haggle with merchants any better.

And also, I still want to remind you that in D&D skills and ability scores exist, and they're meant to be used. Yes, they work similarly for all classes, but this doesn't make them worthless.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes. And they couldn't go toe-to-toe with Thor or Hulk.

did you see avengers 1...or 2? widdow can.

Indeed. My disbelief suspensors are somewhat fragile and this is well beyond their meagre capacity.

yes. the idea that someone is beyond normal but still just a person is beyond you. Odysius and batman and john McLean and john wick (maybe it is the name john?) even who ever Arnold played in predator 1 (I can't believe I don't remember...was it dutch, I will look it up later) are all super human in the fact that they do things no human can... but in story they are just lucky or spunky, or tough paragons that are the best of humanity.

It already bugged me in the Loki TV show how they seemed to have forgotten his Asgardian strength.

okay side note... my fiancé wanted to kill me every time I said "How can a normal person fight him and be a threat?" because he WASN'T fighting black widow or shield agent with super trainign... but biker and store clerk. SO I do get this one.

If hawkeye (or even just TVA agents) give him a hard time that is cool... they are the paragons as above, when random biker without a name does I feel that is weird.

I have an annoying habit of wanting even my fantasy entertainment to make some vague sense.

me too... but to me "paragon hero" makes sense. Batman isn't joe the plumber in hockey pads ("I'm not wearing hockey pads") he is the best of the best.

I'm willing and capable of suspending my disbelief for fantastic things existing, but those should then still be depicted somewhat coherently.

again... john wick can survive things no real person can. Black widow can fall shooting her guns and land or do a back flip to break her fall and be fine. characters jump out of planes/helecarriers without parashoots. characters take on things that in teh real world would not work...

And I feel in RPG it is especially important if you want to be immersed in the world and make decisions from in-character perspective.

i agree. but when the game says "this guy is so good he can do XXX" i just say "That IS the fiction"

 

[Crimson Longinus]

define real fight... do you mean a fight that YOU control superman instead of him acting like superman? cause his defualt is to stand still (no speed) assumeing he can tank anything that comes his way (go look up his first fight with doomsday where he stands get hit and says something kinda witty then gets kicked in teh gut and goes flying). so this character that speed blitz may have supermans powers... but it isn't the character.

But isn't this what RPGs are about? I get to play a superman-like character, but I get to decide how they act? If I need to just mimic some script from the comics, why even play a RPG instead of just reading the comic?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This is what I said ages ago and you vehemently rejected it. The idea that some times some characters can contribute more. Even if your fighter had some feature that allowed them to do remarkable athletic feats, they might not have one that lets them haggle with merchants any better.

And also, I still want to remind you that in D&D skills and ability scores exist, and they're meant to be used. Yes, they work similarly for all classes, but this doesn't make them worthless.

this is were we are almost on the same page.

if my 17th level fighter could choose to have an ability similar to a 9th level spell in scope and power...but didn't HAVE to chose it, that would be great. Heck if my 18th level (1 level after full casters get 9th level spells) my fighter could get an ability on par with a 6th level spell for a non combat encounter I would be happier.

 

[Micah Sweet]

the animate superman/batman from 90's might just be the best version... smallville was okay but I think it could have been better.

Not a perfect show by any means, but I feel it had the best characterization of Clark. To me, Superman should be a classic paladin, and Smallville's Clark was that.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

did you see avengers 1...or 2? widdow can.

She can dodge for a while. She literally cannot harm Hulk.

yes. the idea that someone is beyond normal but still just a person is beyond you. Odysius and batman and john McLean and john wick (maybe it is the name john?) even who ever Arnold played in predator 1 (I can't believe I don't remember...was it dutch, I will look it up later) are all super human in the fact that they do things no human can... but in story they are just lucky or spunky, or tough paragons that are the best of humanity.

Sure. But there simply are some hard limits.

okay side note... my fiancé wanted to kill me every time I said "How can a normal person fight him and be a threat?" because he WASN'T fighting black widow or shield agent with super trainign... but biker and store clerk. SO I do get this one.

If hawkeye (or even just TVA agents) give him a hard time that is cool... they are the paragons as above, when random biker without a name does I feel that is weird.

Right. So at least you get a bit where I'm coming from. Though I have hard time imagining even a skilled normal human threatening an Asgardian unless they have some excellent gear, as Asgardians seem to be bullet proof and otherwise massively resilient, so I can't see how they could actually harm them.

me too... but to me "paragon hero" makes sense. Batman isn't joe the plumber in hockey pads ("I'm not wearing hockey pads") he is the best of the best.

again... john wick can survive things no real person can. Black widow can fall shooting her guns and land or do a back flip to break her fall and be fine. characters jump out of planes/helecarriers without parashoots. characters take on things that in teh real world would not work...

i agree. but when the game says "this guy is so good he can do XXX" i just say "That IS the fiction"

And as I said, there is some hard limits. I can't accept that you can be skilled enough that your punches can harm a nuke-proof person, at least not if the fiction is that you're a basically a normal person instead of a magical martial artist.

Which brings us back to D&D. I have for a long time advocated the game flat out stating that high level characters are mythic heroes, and even martials are not truly 'mundane' at that point, so they can do some stuff that is impossible in real life. Though lower levels should remain more grounded.

 

[Micah Sweet]

sometimes he uses those... but at least half (if not 3/4) of the time he just is doing it by being smart and able to make himself legally untouchable... heck (as I said in 90;s was my start in comics and RPGs) for years he was a respected member of the community on the world stage and superman couldn't do anything to him

Sure. That's how you fight someone you can't really fight, because they're unbelievably more powerful personally than you will ever be.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

But isn't this what RPGs are about? I get to play a superman-like character, but I get to decide how they act? If I need to just mimic some script from the comics, why even play a RPG instead of just reading the comic?

thats fine... you CAN play a superman LIKE character. He would (in M&M) not be better then any other character just diffrent.

How I did it I think in 2e maybe it was 1e at PL8 was I took corrosion. (the power forces a fort save, then if you fail it you lose some toughness... THEN the toughness save vs damage) refluffed as "I live in a world of cardboard" with the pericing quality added to it so I could go through invulnerability equal to the power level. I then took -2 to attack max (making it +6) and +2 to damage max for the power (allowing my corrosion to be 10) I then took alternat power blast with a bunch of little add ons to equal out but didn't trade the attack/damage... allowing for me to have my ray attack (from hands not eyes) that was +8 to hit +8 to damage. I then took invulnerability (weakness magic), super strength and very low flight (I did wish I could have had more speed/flight)

we had a gadgiteer (more blue beetle meets steel then batman) and a greenlantern like character and a martial artisit. it worked fine. in a fight we all were equals more or less, even though none of them could pull off the 'superman' stunts I could.

if we needed to get through a wall

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Not a perfect show by any means, but I feel it had the best characterization of Clark. To me, Superman should be a classic paladin, and Smallville's Clark was that.

agreed. I wish more MOVIE writers could handle clark that way