D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

But see, I don't think GDS Dramatism couldn't include "Story Now"; I think that assumption was flawed from the get-go. There were people in the original Dramatism camp who probably didn't think so (I'd have been surprised if Berkman acknowledged the possibility), but there was absolutely discussion of what was sometimes called "drama on the fly" which, far as I can tell, is identical. Where people get the idea that it wasn't I've never understood.
But I don't think 'Drama' is a superset of Story Now. My reading of GDS/GEN both is that they are largely presupposing some sort of authored material, either including plot or at least including setting. I don't see Story Now's emphasis on Low Myth, or even any mention of the possibilities of Low/No Myth there. This to me seems to be a rather large hole. I also find it curious when the founding documents of GEN basically state flat out that the G in GNS is non-existent and unaddressed, which seems like a major point that would have to be ironed out before basically any other discussion of the merits of the different models could be had. Frankly I don't agree on this point with Scarlet Jester to start with. Beyond that, a 21 year old discussion seems a bit dated? I mean, surely there's been some evolution in thinking, and likely some better understandings of each of these conceptions in the meantime, right?
 

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Given your past posts on this, I think there,'s still a large misunderstanding in here.
Could be. Most of the theorizing is a waste of time.
Because I'm sure you'd claim based on this that your approach...
My style of DMing is to run sandboxes. I run the world, the players play their characters, there's no pre-written story or rails. Whatever that's called, I don't care.
but FKR is pure Sim
You're fundamentally misunderstanding and limiting FKR if that's what you think. FKR is about putting the primacy on the world, not the game mechanics. It's not simulationist in the sense that other games with heavy rules are said to have heavy rules with the intent of simulating physics and the reality of the fiction. That can be one of the goals of an FKR game, simulating the reality of the fiction, but it does so through understanding of that reality or fiction and the DM making a call, not heavy rules. But you can also explicitly play FKR with a goal of emulating story structure, emulating genre, etc. FKR is best summed up in the phrase "play worlds, not rules." Simulationist games are about heavy rules sets meant to copy or emulate physics. There's a big difference.
 

So a more common way to refer to Story Now would be emergent story. The players play their characters, the DM controls the world, you all play to find out what happens. The Powered by the Apocalypse motto is a call for Story Now, aka emergent story.
Well, it isn't that simple! Players in most PbtA games are very active participants in the formulation of the world (setting). In Dungeon World the GM is told very explicitly that they will ask questions and use the answers. It isn't a hard mechanically governed aspect of play, but it is DEEPLY a part of the agenda! Beyond that, in most cases in PbtA games (again there are definitely exceptions here) the GM is pretty much entirely expected to frame ONLY scenes which address the dramatic needs of the characters, and there are generally mechanisms (like DW bonds and alignment amongst others) which specifically generate these things on purpose.

I mean, yes, in some sense the GM does control the challenges presented to the PCs and has the responsibility for how they resolve, this is a necessary part of generating drama, and is largely why earlier generations of gamers/designers who were interested in dramatic play found it difficult to give much control to the players. It was the working out of the Story Now kind of process that brought that together. It didn't happen by discussing 3-fold model, GNS brought that out with its definitions of Narrativism, which I do think have some critical differences with the GDS 'dramatic'. I'll let others correct/elaborate on that who have spent more time in that space.
 

Could be. Most of the theorizing is a waste of time.
Odd, coming from you, since to you do quite a bit of it in promoting and discussing why you think FKR is a good thing.
My style of DMing is to run sandboxes. I run the world, the players play their characters, there's no pre-written story or rails. Whatever that's called, I don't care.
Ok. There's pre-written setting material and the GM retains the power of No over PC action declarations, especially if they conflict with setting. Very little setting is initially revealed to players, but instead reveal by declaring actions that discover it. Play is mostly about this. And this is 100% fine.
You're fundamentally misunderstanding and limiting FKR if that's what you think. FKR is about putting the primacy on the world, not the game mechanics. It's not simulationist in the sense that other games with heavy rules are said to have heavy rules with the intent of simulating physics and the reality of the fiction. That can be one of the goals of an FKR game, simulating the reality of the fiction, but it does so through understanding of that reality or fiction and the DM making a call, not heavy rules. But you can also explicitly play FKR with a goal of emulating story structure, emulating genre, etc. FKR is best summed up in the phrase "play worlds, not rules." Simulationist games are about heavy rules sets meant to copy or emulate physics. There's a big difference.
No, that's straight up Sim, man. It's not about mechanics, although it can be, but your assertion that the GM is the best emulator of the world is 100% straight up Sim. This isn't at all a bad or negative thing. There's not a single thing wrong with running a Sim game. But if you're attempting to compare play to the model that has Story Now defined, then you need to also place other play within that model. And the play you advocate for is pure Sim. It's not Gamism at all, as you eschew that agenda strongly. It's certainly not Narrativism/Story Now, as you're absolutely clear about the authority structure of your play and what's expected from it. Sim not only is left, but actually clearly explains your play within its agenda.
 

Also, Story Now isn't about emergent story -- that's a very Classic Culture and OSR Culture thing. That story is whatever you put together after play. Story Now doesn't care about that as its focus or agenda. It fixes on on right now, what pressure/ conflict/ antagonism is happening right now and what are the PCs doing about it?
 

Could be. Most of the theorizing is a waste of time.

My style of DMing is to run sandboxes. I run the world, the players play their characters, there's no pre-written story or rails. Whatever that's called, I don't care.

You're fundamentally misunderstanding and limiting FKR if that's what you think. FKR is about putting the primacy on the world, not the game mechanics. It's not simulationist in the sense that other games with heavy rules are said to have heavy rules with the intent of simulating physics and the reality of the fiction. That can be one of the goals of an FKR game, simulating the reality of the fiction, but it does so through understanding of that reality or fiction and the DM making a call, not heavy rules. But you can also explicitly play FKR with a goal of emulating story structure, emulating genre, etc. FKR is best summed up in the phrase "play worlds, not rules." Simulationist games are about heavy rules sets meant to copy or emulate physics. There's a big difference.
I don't know all the different models and definitions of 'simulationist', but that isn't the GNS definition, not at all. In fact it is basically the common misunderstanding of what GNS is saying about simulation. It is much closer, AFAIK, to what you are claiming is FKR. So, IMHO an FKR is a probably pretty simulationist, but I don't think we can assert that definitively without further characterization. IOW what are the goals/victory conditions? What other rules are in place which govern resources, stance, etc.? I mean, we know its RP, but how much 'game' is there in there, and what is the balance between that and 'world', and can you say something is even a 'simulation' of anything at all if it lacks codified rules about that element? I don't think Kriegspiel IN GENERAL fits well within GNS, or at least you have to be a lot more specific. I mean its like saying 'card game', some of them could be RPGs and we could look at those through a GNS lens, but others aren't.
 

Well, it isn't that simple! Players in most PbtA games are very active participants in the formulation of the world (setting). In Dungeon World the GM is told very explicitly that they will ask questions and use the answers. It isn't a hard mechanically governed aspect of play, but it is DEEPLY a part of the agenda! Beyond that, in most cases in PbtA games (again there are definitely exceptions here) the GM is pretty much entirely expected to frame ONLY scenes which address the dramatic needs of the characters, and there are generally mechanisms (like DW bonds and alignment amongst others) which specifically generate these things on purpose.
Sounds rather limited and messy. So I take it DW is the Story Now game? Yeah, that's not for me. I like the lighter and more flexible rules. But RPGs aren't stories. Games that try to force emulating story structure or dramatic whatever are kinda dull to me as they typically utterly fail. Mostly because everyone playing is supposed to have agency.
Odd, coming from you, since to you do quite a bit of it in promoting and discussing why you think FKR is a good thing.
Well, FKR is not an abstract theory. It's a style of play, style of game, and style of DMing.
Ok. There's pre-written setting material and the GM retains the power of No over PC action declarations, especially if they conflict with setting. Very little setting is initially revealed to players, but instead reveal by declaring actions that discover it. Play is mostly about this. And this is 100% fine.
I would disagree with this. It's not hard and fast, it depends. You can sandbox in a familiar setting or a completely new one. If you're focusing on exploration and hexcrawling, then sure. But not all sandboxes are exploration-focused hexcrawls.
No, that's straight up Sim, man. It's not about mechanics, although it can be, but your assertion that the GM is the best emulator of the world is 100% straight up Sim. This isn't at all a bad or negative thing. There's not a single thing wrong with running a Sim game. But if you're attempting to compare play to the model that has Story Now defined, then you need to also place other play within that model. And the play you advocate for is pure Sim. It's not Gamism at all, as you eschew that agenda strongly. It's certainly not Narrativism/Story Now, as you're absolutely clear about the authority structure of your play and what's expected from it. Sim not only is left, but actually clearly explains your play within its agenda.
I don't know enough of the theories to understand half of what you're saying here.
I don't know all the different models and definitions of 'simulationist', but that isn't the GNS definition, not at all. In fact it is basically the common misunderstanding of what GNS is saying about simulation.
Sure. Could be. It all reads as philosophy written by people who don't understand philosophy.
It is much closer, AFAIK, to what you are claiming is FKR. So, IMHO an FKR is a probably pretty simulationist, but I don't think we can assert that definitively without further characterization.
My understanding of Free Kriegsspiel Renaissance (FKR) is that it places primacy on the fictional world rather than the rules of any game system. That rules limit and restrict play rather than inform or aid play. Further, the heavier the rules the more they get between the players and the world. So, you remove as much of the rules as possible to get to only what you need. Typically something that fits on 3x5 card or a few short pages. Then, you engage with the world as if it were a real place and play your characters as if they were real people within that world.

Whatever that means as far as these theories go...great.
IOW what are the goals/victory conditions?
The goal is to have fun playing the game by not focusing on the rules and instead focusing on the fictional world.
What other rules are in place which govern resources, stance, etc.?
It depends on the iteration. FKR isn't single a game, it's a loose cluster of games, designs, designers, etc.

Some can be as simple as: when in conflict where the outcome is uncertain and success or failure would be interesting, make an opposed 2d6 roll. Higher roll wins. Negotiate ties.

That's the entire game. Some add on things like damage tracking, armor, defenses, etc. It's very much about getting rid of the cruft and clutter and immersing in the world.
I mean, we know its RP, but how much 'game' is there in there, and what is the balance between that and 'world', and can you say something is even a 'simulation' of anything at all if it lacks codified rules about that element?
The rules about the world, such as they are, typically consist of something like "we're playing Blade Runner with influences from the original novel it's based on, Do Andriods Dream of Electric Sheep. So go watch Blade Runner: Final Cut before we play and read the novel if you have time."

That's typically about it. The Referee decides they want to run a game in that world or the group decides they want to play in this world, go engage with it, and that will inform you about the setting and expectations.
 
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Are they really? I mean, lets imagine people playing a supers game in DC Universe. Don't you think they're going to have some interest in the setting as well as the genre?

Not in a simulationist sense. In the sense they'll care its only to the degree everyone cares about setting, no matter their aims. Frankly, superhero settings are not exactly well known for their coherence and consistency at the best of times; its rarely their strong suit.

So I'm going to pretty much stand by my opinion here.
 

But I don't think 'Drama' is a superset of Story Now. My reading of GDS/GEN both is that they are largely presupposing some sort of authored material, either including plot or at least including setting. I don't see Story Now's emphasis on Low Myth, or even any mention of the possibilities of Low/No Myth there. This to me seems to be a rather large hole. I also find it curious when the founding documents of GEN basically state flat out that the G in GNS is non-existent and unaddressed, which seems like a major point that would have to be ironed out before basically any other discussion of the merits of the different models could be had. Frankly I don't agree on this point with Scarlet Jester to start with. Beyond that, a 21 year old discussion seems a bit dated? I mean, surely there's been some evolution in thinking, and likely some better understandings of each of these conceptions in the meantime, right?

Has there? If I agreed, I wouldn't be making the argument I did (though I think you're conflating me in part with someone else; I'm not the one that brought up GEN). Its my position is that while there's been "evolution" in thinking, its to be noted its not in the sense of improvement; in fact, as I said, I think GNS is even less useful than GDS, and GDS had plenty of problems to start with, but all GNS did is trade them for others (such as the whole concept of "incoherence" which, at the very least, was not presented as the extreme in GDS terms, where the worst someone would say is there's some trade offs).

Also, if you demand for something to not include even setting for Nar to apply to it, then the vast majority of things you see as presented as Nar aren't, either; they may not fill in the complete elements of the setting at the start (but then, neither did all Dramatist settings; all they really needed was rest state after all) but they aren't tabula rasas.
 
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yes 100% accurate. also see:
player, doesn't know what they want
and
player, not a real comics fan

Which is why engaging with strong genre is a dramatic question, not a simulationist one; someone can engage with a setting on a purely simulationist ground while utterly ignoring genre in those (they're unlikely to do so in soft genres, because soft genres are usually more about setting and situation types than assumed metareality rules the way superhero and a few other genres do).
 

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