D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Its not enough to qualify as a Story Now/Narrativist game to not have a pre-written adventure path. Notice above how I cited just how consequential player-authored quests (and item wishlists and Theme and Paragon Path and Epic Destiny) are in 4e. That is because this allows players to declare dramatic needs which in turn sites the premise of conflict for subsequent play. Players choose what their protagonism is about, not the GM. The GM's job is to then react to that by framing scenes laden with opposition to their evinced dramatic needs.

It is necessary but not sufficient to have open-ended situations where player input + principally/procedurally constrained antagonism/opposition by GM + system's say drives the action and dictates the outcome. If the GM is choosing the nature of the player's protagonism by creating a matrix of setting + situation (even if it yields a diverse menu), the nexus of which isn't player-evinced dramatic needs/premise, then its not Story Now play.

It may be some form of High Concept Sim Sandbox where the GM is pitching a premise/source of protagonism and the players play out and explore the experiential nature of that GM-sited, genre-emulating protagonism. But its not Story Now/Narrativism.

It may be a Process Sim Sandbox (specifically themed or theme-neutral or theme-whole-kitchen-sink) where the players tour and explore and defeat the setting and situation and challenge material the GM has conceived through guts, grit, and guile and internal causality based inferences. But its not Story Now/Narrativism.

In order for play to be Story Now/Narrativism, you need both:

* Open-ended situations where player input + principally/procedurally constrained antagonism/opposition by GM + system's say drives the action and dictates the outcome. This infuses play with the necessary "play to find out" quality.

* Players choosing the nature of their protagonism and dictating to the GM the content that is to follow from that (not the inverse). Or, you might have something like My Life With Master where the players create their antagonism (building The Master) and, by-proxy, create their protagonism-by-opposition. This infuses play with the necessary "the nexus of play is player-evinced dramatic need/premise quality."
'Raises hand'

I have a question. If you were writing the introduction to an rpg, in which you were describing the intended game play of a Story Now game, how would you write it? What words would you use? Because if you wrote it using the language above, I think a lot of people would have a hard time understanding what you're talking about. That was an extraordinarily technical explanation. What's the "I want people to understand and play my game version"?

Take the idea of scene framing. I've seen that term thrown around this board a lot, but I don't think I've ever seen it used in an actual RPG book people read to understand the rules of the game.
 

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'Raises hand'

I have a question. If you were writing the introduction to an rpg, in which you were describing the intended game play of a Story Now game, how would you write it? What words would you use? Because if you wrote it using the language above, I think a lot of people would have a hard time understanding what you're talking about. That was an extraordinarily technical explanation. What's the "I want people to understand and play my game version"?

Take the idea of scene framing. I've seen that term thrown around this board a lot, but I don't think I've ever seen it used in an actual RPG book people read to understand the rules of the game.

Something like:

“You know how other games tell you to be a neutral referee?

Forget all that.

Attack.

Your players will tell you what to attack.

When they go on the offense?

Oppose.

Here are the ways you attack and oppose (what moves you can make and the principles that will guide you in choosing the appropriate type/amount of opposition) and here are the rules you must follow when doing so.

You know how other games tell you to plan and plan and plan?

Forget all that.

Have only as much as you need (places, people, backstory) to give the players stuff to act upon and against. The players will tell you the rest of the stuff you need to inform your opposition. This process will repeat as you play. The PCs will evolve, wilt, and grow (see advancement and retirement section) and all the places and people and backstory will fill out and come to life.

Trust the process. It’ll be cool to take part and bear witness at the same time.”

EDIT - or

You’re not a neutral referee.

You’re not a planner.

You’re not a storyteller.

Here’s how that works and what comes of it.
 
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eyeheartawk

#1 Enworld Jerk™
Screenshot 2022-05-06 095401.png
 

There can be a matter of perspective when it comes to a couple cases. Specifically, almost from the start of superhero RPGs, players have been bolting on sometimes substantial setting elements with all but the most fussy GMs just nodding and going along. Arguably that's because its not too likely someone is going to do something that will cause conflicts with what the GM and/or other players are doing (and it'll be pretty obvious when they are).
I think the confusion here may be like if I say the agenda for this super hero game could be simulationist; now someone else says "but we played supers and that wasn't the agenda!" OK, sure, genre is not wedded to an agenda. I'm sure a LOT of super hero games are not simulating some Silver Age comic. Many of them might be just fun skirmish games with the genre as color. Many of them might be about telling the stories of people that have weird powers. Each of those is PROBABLY going to use a different system, process, and principles of play. Again, what a theory of agendas can do for you is explain why when Mike min/maxes the power system and has his character run around 'winning every fight' single-handed that it clashes badly with David, who's trying to figure out how his character handles the fact that his sister is a super villain. They just don't mesh, right?
You also have the odd cases of groups that have combined campaigns where all the players are also fellow GMs participating in a combined world setting (with, say, separate countries or regions under their control) which was apparently not uncommon even back at the start in D&D, but I can understand an argument that's not the same thing.
Done it a few times. I think you probably kinda have to agree on the sort of thing you're aiming for with that setup as well. I mean, OK, maybe it could work where one GM is running a highly gamist "level up and get more powerful than the rest" D&D game that happens in the 'Bone March' and the other guy is running cutthroat intrigue games that explore just how evil you're willing to be to get ahead over in 'The Great Kingdom'. Still, if they're both stuck with the same system and compatible table cultures one of those is going to labor with system issues and whatnot.
Neither of these, of course, was systemized.

(I'm a little puzzled where that appeared in CT though; was it just in the implication that players would fill in their homeworlds?)

(This, by the way, is one of the reasons I look at claims that traditional Dramatists didn't do this with a jaundiced eye; some may not have, but it was abundantly clear that many of them considered players filling in elements of the setting as they went not only acceptable but expected. It wasn't systematized, but it was a pronounced thread among them.).
Traveller is an odd duck of a game in some ways. It is a classic mid-70's 'activity resolution system', but then it has these places where it is specifically a LOT more involved in story. I mean, if you roll up a D&D character, using any classic edition, the ONLY real indicator of anything beyond basic physical traits is alignment, that's it. Your class choice may or may not tend to imply some other social/ethical considerations, but not to a great degree in most cases (and most PCs by earlier systems won't even qualify for classes like Ranger or Paladin anyway). Now look at Traveller, you MUST describe at least the last 4 years of the PC's life to some degree just to get the numbers on the sheet! It could be a LOT more than that. Even your stats are much more about your story, EDU, and SS, are basically all story, they aren't traits relating to anything except your place in society, really. And then beyond THAT is the way the Universe is vast and cannot possibly be comprehensively mapped. Going by the base rules of Traveller, the GM probably knows almost nothing about even the subsector the PCs are in. While the game does lack the sorts of PbtA "ask questions use the answers" sorts of procedures, it definitely does beg to do what you suggest and have players expand on, for instance, their service history. Because there's an objective system for generating "terrain" (planets and what is on them) you can even just hand that off to players and they can follow the process in the book, and then it is unlikely to be an issue if they interpret that and embellish it some. D&D, at least in its basic form, doesn't really cater much to any of that (though obviously a GM CAN ask you to describe your home town or something like that).

I always found that Traveller characters were a lot more likely to have some kind of actual CHARACTER to the PC, at least some bits of history, connections (which is also fostered by the whole patron thing), etc. Heck, many of them have bank loans and an ongoing business! Not to say that Traveller took all that very far, but further than other games of that era at least.
 

... that's a story authored by the DM. Which was the point.

You created the setup. You defined the conflict ("...an evil princess threatening...") You, presumably, created and applied the rising action ("...faced many hardships...") And you chose what event would qualify as a conclusion to the tale ("...eventually stopped her.")

How is that even remotely player-authored? The players took the situation you handed to them and acted out their parts. It would be hardly different from saying that a modern English retelling of Romeo and Juliet was "actor-authored" solely because the actors were told to ad-lib when it suited them!
Right, and I say it almost inevitably goes beyond that, because very soon the GM will be called upon to make judgements about how NPCs react, what their plans are, what resources they possess, factors related to the natural world that weren't pre-specified, etc. I mean GMs decide 100 things before breakfast, many of them they don't even realize they're deciding. All of this will go towards supporting some form of the evolution of this nascent implicit story. Any good campaign will be brimming with story, even if it is a classic crawl/sandbox type of arrangement. Then the GM will avoid deciding things in ways that tend to kill that story, and will instead water it like a pretty houseplant.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
'Raises hand'

I have a question. If you were writing the introduction to an rpg, in which you were describing the intended game play of a Story Now game, how would you write it? What words would you use? Because if you wrote it using the language above, I think a lot of people would have a hard time understanding what you're talking about. That was an extraordinarily technical explanation. What's the "I want people to understand and play my game version"?

Take the idea of scene framing. I've seen that term thrown around this board a lot, but I don't think I've ever seen it used in an actual RPG book people read to understand the rules of the game.

What is a Roleplaying Game?

This is a difficult question, because "roleplaying game" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. However, at an extremely high level, a "roleplaying game" is firstly some kind of game--an activity with rules and many different possible outcomes, compared to things like puzzles with only one valid solution, or artistic pursuits where "rules" don't really apply. Secondly, it concerns roleplay, that is, pretending to be someone you aren't in a fictional situation. If these sound like extremely generic terms, that's because they are; a lot of different things are "roleplaying games," and it is difficult to capture all of them in a single description.

So what is Swords Thrown Among Radiant Stars?

STARS is what some call a "Story Now" roleplaying game. This means that, generally speaking, the impetus for the characters to take action, for adventure to happen, for brave deeds or craven crawling...is you, the player. A "Story Now" game is focused on protagonists (you and your fellow players) going after whatever it is they believe worth seeking (their goal), examining and exploring the places they find themselves in and the events around them (their situation), and deciding what they're willing to do or endure to achieve that goal (resulting conflict). You then repeat this process for as long as it remains interesting for you to do so! Through your process of choosing a goal, facing situations, and resolving conflicts, you'll learn about yourselves and your characters, and leave a legacy to be remembered. Or, at least, that's the hope!

Like with many other roleplaying games--some you have most likely already heard of--there is someone there to facilitate this process, the Stargazer or "SG." Unlike the game masters of those other games, however, the intended purpose of the Stargazer in STARS is not to create plot hooks for you to choose from. STARS is not meant to be a game where the players passively accept whatever things the SG tells them are valuable, nor even one where the players simply choose whatever they think is most interesting from a palette of prepared options. Instead, the players have control over what gets served up, with the Stargazer simply setting the stage so that the players can do what they like on it. Of course, sometimes in order for the players to be able to do what they like, certain things have to be on the stage: you can't challenge your fear of heights by climbing a mountain if there's no surface to climb. This process, of furnishing players with the necessary situation elements so they can experience or endure conflict, is called "scene framing" or "framing the scene." It's one of the most important skills for every SG to learn, particularly because it is very easy to accidentally move from merely framing scenes and into writing plots.

It can be helpful to compare "Story Now" games to the two main alternatives, "Story Before" and "Story After." Most roleplaying games today are "Story Before." The players carefully create their characters, perhaps working with other players to do so, and write out comprehensive backstories, which will be used as the seeds for planned-in-advance character developments. The game master creates comprehensive world lore and information, develops various potential enemies and allies, and generally fills up the world with content. This may be a fully pre-written plot where player choice doesn't actually change anything (what some people call "railroading"), or it may be open-ended, where each player choice creates branching paths, but the choices are always whatever the GM provides. But either way, the goals and the situations are mostly determined in advance, and the players react to these things as they see fit.

"Story After" games are relatively rare these days, by comparison to Story Before, but some of the earliest roleplaying games moved in this direction. For this, the GM does not really "plan" any goals or conflicts at all, and may even seem to resemble Story Now play by avoiding any semblance of "plot" or the like. The key difference is that there isn't any effort put to framing scenes at all, or at least not until well after the scene is over. If, for example, one player loses his Wizard character early on, and chooses to play as that character's Fighter sister to quickly get back into play, then after the session is over, the player could look back and describe the successful dungeon run as "my Fighter was avenging her brother's death!" Here, the goal is decided after the conflict is already over, and a progression is developed to explain the events that already occurred in a satisfying way. That is the heart of Story After gaming, and for some folks it is the best part of roleplaying experiences.

Something to keep in mind, however, is that Story Now does not mean that the Stargazer never prepares. Indeed, Stargazers absolutely SHOULD prepare things! But, in general, they prepare less than Story Before game masters do, and the things they prepare should generally take the form of useful tools and resources to draw upon, rather than well-structured, thoroughly planned-out things. So, for example, when you draft up the star chart for your game, leave large areas of it blank--not empty, but unfilled. These areas will be filled in later, through your players triggering new situations due to their choices or the consequences thereof, or through you drawing on your prepared resources to frame a new scene."

That got kind of long, but I was trying to keep it in that "conversational instruction" mode while covering all the basics and providing compare-and-contrast examples.

If I have erred in my descriptions of these things in the estimation of anyone better-versed in these things than I am--such as @pemerton or @AbdulAlhazred or others--then please fault me, not the underlying concept. I am still very new to this stuff.
 

Does anyone have an actual example of "story now" play in a megadungeon?

If so, let's hear it - it sounds interesting!

If not, how does it bear upon @Hussar's remark about the demands of "story now" setting design?
No, but honestly if you look at the (mostly fragmentary) accounts of early GMs, there's a strong 'Quest Element' there. I mean, you didn't delve into Greyhawk (unless maybe you were a level 1 newb) without some sort of goals and ideas of what you were doing, and that might well be motivated by concepts of characterization that were invented. So, maybe a PC acquires a sister because of some earlier plot hook, and now it might well be that there's an item he needs in order to save her. Or etc. I mean, this was not the central agenda maybe, but I think its apparent to me, from playing back then (though not with guys like Gygax) that this was a fairly common element. At some point I can remember that I started making dungeons where the rooms were concocted mostly on the fly to address things the players said or did at the table, etc. Also you could at least in theory have a fixed dungeon that tested the character. We never quite got to the idea of testing intent, not like Edwards and others did in the 90's. You COULD though, I mean, would D&D really fight that very much? Old D&D had few actual resolution mechanics, just saves and attack/damage rolls, plus various reasonably formalized exploration mechanics. The only other thing that was KINDA there were ability checks.

So. What if you played something that used OD&D mechanics, or lets say Holmes Basic and you asked players what they were intending to accomplish when they tried something. You could then ask for an ability check (or it might be one of the other existing types of die roll) and use it to gauge that, complete with fail-forward and some notion of 'twists' and such. I don't think that game will fight you. I think that was the point of the comment in DW about "World of Dungeons", that D&D's original mechanics were so simple and ad-hoc that you really could play something like that. Now, how would that play out in a Megadungeon? That I'm not sure, but you could, for example, focus on specifics. Maybe you really key in on the cleric's relationship with his deity, for instance. I think your dungeon would have to be a lot less outright deadly than the typical design too, but that could be more color than anything (IE the PCs just go deeper, things still often go wrong eventually). You might need to pick a strong theme too, like the dungeon is really a testing grounds, that sort of thing.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
'Raises hand'

I have a question. If you were writing the introduction to an rpg, in which you were describing the intended game play of a Story Now game, how would you write it? What words would you use? Because if you wrote it using the language above, I think a lot of people would have a hard time understanding what you're talking about. That was an extraordinarily technical explanation. What's the "I want people to understand and play my game version"?

Take the idea of scene framing. I've seen that term thrown around this board a lot, but I don't think I've ever seen it used in an actual RPG book people read to understand the rules of the game.
“If you can’t explain it to a six-year-old, you don’t understand it yourself.”
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
This stuff (Story Now) is fairly easy to explain.

Players : Create dynamic characters who want things. Go after those things like you are driving a stolen car. Be a fan of each others' characters.
GMs : Create dynamic situations that relate back to the aims of the player characters and introduce fun complications, keeping the focus solely on them. Be a fan of the player characters.
Everyone : Play to find out what happens. Bring it.

It only gets complicated when we smuggle in how we expect this stuff to work.
 

So far as I can recall, here are the four simultaneous refrains I’ve run into over…and over…and over in my last decade of elaborating (into the ground) on the concept of Story Now. Courtesy of our motley crew of ENWorlders:

“Makes no sense.”

“No different than anything else.”

“So basically a GMless game with entitled players?”

“It’s impossible. There is no way what you’re depicting can work. The whole thing will come apart.”
 

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