D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

[GMforPowergamers]

....yes they do. Shocking grasp is a melee spell attack. That makes it use your spellcasting modifier. It's a Wizard cantrip. In fact, not only that, but to compensate for it being a melee cantrip, it's actually really strong! To whit: "Make a melee spell attack against the target. You have advantage on the attack roll if the target is wearing armor made of metal. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 lightning damage, and it can't take reactions until the start of its next turn." Metal armor applies to many opponents, so that's a major edge. Denying the enemy reactions if you hit is likewise powerful if your group intends to gang up on that enemy. Unless it goes immediately after you, I guess? It's still a lot of benefits and a d8 melee attack that scales up to 4d8.

shocking grasp turned a marilith fight into a joke once... it was pretty funny (since I wasn't the DM)

(they were originally Swordmage at-will powers in 4e; naturally this means they were used to make full-casters stronger in 5e.)

I am all for ripping the wizard up and making multi new classes... ones that have more limited spell selections but cool class features...
Beguiler
Necromancer
Sage
Swordmage
Warmage

yes there would be overlap (like how warlock sorcerer and wizard now have over lap) but I would say 1/2 of the spells for each class should be ONLY for that class and some non0 amount of spells that overlap should still only be to 3 of the 5 classes

I mean, that's your right, but like...this actually IS a thing in real life. Wielding endurance aggressively, by pounding and pounding and never letting up, is quite potent in the right contexts. As mentioned, some folks win fencing duels this way. Whether or not you choose to buy it is your business.

again I admit Con takes more work but I could argue Wolverine (comics not Hugh jackman) could be a Con attacker (multi class barbarian fighter)

 

[CreamCloud0]

I am all for ripping the wizard up and making multi new classes... ones that have more limited spell selections but cool class features...
Beguiler
Necromancer
Sage
Swordmage
Warmage

yes there would be overlap (like how warlock sorcerer and wizard now have over lap) but I would say 1/2 of the spells for each class should be ONLY for that class and some non0 amount of spells that overlap should still only be to 3 of the 5 classes

Wizards I really think ought to be returned to their specialisation and forbidden style of schools, to prevent their giant spell lists from letting them be masters of all by locking out some of their options,
Alternately wizards could be rebuilt to be mainly utility casters with limited direct combat options, this takes pressure off sorcerer and warlock to compete for their niche with them and then the wizard's removed offensive spells could be divided up and used to expand their spell lists (sorcerer i'd lean to the more elemental blasting side of things and the warlock getting enchantments and illusions, that kind of stuff).
I'm aware that there would be riots at even suggesting to nerf to the wizard but it's something that needs to happen one way or another.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Wizards I really think ought to be returned to their specialisation and forbidden style of schools, to prevent their giant spell lists from letting them be masters of all by locking out some of their options,
Alternately wizards could be rebuilt to be mainly utility casters with limited direct combat options, this takes pressure off sorcerer and warlock to compete for their niche with them and then the wizard's removed offensive spells could be divided up and used to expand their spell lists (sorcerer i'd lean to the more elemental blasting side of things and the warlock getting enchantments and illusions, that kind of stuff).
I'm aware that there would be riots at even suggesting to nerf to the wizard but it's something that needs to happen one way or another.

What happens if it doesn't? If nerfing wizards "needs" to happen, what are the consequences if it not happening? The biggest nerfing wizards ever got was in 4th ed. What's the legacy of that? Some people really didn't like it, and ultimately it was largely reversed. Are the benefits of trying it again worth the fall out?

Seriously, buff martials if this is a problem for you. Many third party products have done so. WotC seems, understandably, hesitant to make those kind of changes without strong player support, which they do not have. Nerfing stuff mostly just hacks people off.

 

[James Gasik]

I would rather buff martials, but there are a lot of people who like non-casters just the way they are, thanks They don't need hoo yah kung fu or weird magic, just good armor, a strong piece of steel, and a "I'm too old for this fewmets" attitude to take on giants, dragons, and evil gods!

Making specialists have to do without a couple of schools of spells wouldn't be much of a nerf, but it would make them more interesting to play, I think.

 

[Maxperson]

Wizards I really think ought to be returned to their specialisation and forbidden style of schools, to prevent their giant spell lists from letting them be masters of all by locking out some of their options,
Alternately wizards could be rebuilt to be mainly utility casters with limited direct combat options, this takes pressure off sorcerer and warlock to compete for their niche with them and then the wizard's removed offensive spells could be divided up and used to expand their spell lists (sorcerer i'd lean to the more elemental blasting side of things and the warlock getting enchantments and illusions, that kind of stuff).
I'm aware that there would be riots at even suggesting to nerf to the wizard but it's something that needs to happen one way or another.

The specialties are nicely done via the subclasses. Just make it so that you get the school of your subclass and 3 other schools to select spells from. That will keep Wizards from a ton of their shenanigans.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would rather buff martials, but there are a lot of people who like non-casters just the way they are, thanks They don't need hoo yah kung fu or weird magic, just good armor, a strong piece of steel, and a "I'm too old for this fewmets" attitude to take on giants, dragons, and evil gods!

Making specialists have to do without a couple of schools of spells wouldn't be much of a nerf, but it would make them more interesting to play, I think.

Then I'm afraid you're going to have to homebrew, or find 3rd party stuff that does that for you. I am extremely skeptical that WotC will do anything of the sort for you.

 

[James Gasik]

Then I'm afraid you're going to have to homebrew, or find 3rd party stuff that does that for you. I am extremely skeptical that WotC will do anything of the sort for you.

Oh me too, but a man can dream. For the pendulum to swing the other way at this point would require a fairly massive shift in the kind of game the playerbase enjoys. I mean, it can happen, but it's unlikely.

WotC seems perfectly content to improve the quality of spellcasters and keep churning out more spells for them to use- so unless the game I'm in has wacky houserules, I'll just shrug and play a guy with magic, rather than do otherwise and then wonder why I'm having a harder time of it.

 

[Helldritch]

where i can see a place for a campaign for such things (combat magic not working well) i would not like that to b the default

Well... casting a ranged cantrip in melee already puts the caster at disadvantage. It is just adding the saved ones too. Note that melee cantrips are unaffected.

sort of... it sounds to me like the dump str just became 10 instead of 8...

Which delays the 20 in main stat. And might favor different ways

that seems backwards and defeating the purpose of all of this. Dex penalties already hit you hard why make them worse?

? No dex penalty for wearing heavy armor.

except it only makes it that you put a 10 in dex or a 10 in str instead of 8 how is that not just raising the dump from 8 to 10?

Yep, and delays the 20...

I keep toyng with things like this too, the + to skills didn't work out well.

Same here. Still searching for a good middle point.

yes I like mix and match skills tools and stats

ugh that is sad... I played in a game with a Rouge (arcane trick)/wiz (illusion) gnome and an aasimar cleric... the rogue/wiz took religion and was 10x better then the cleric

Same here. This is one of the weak spots of 5ed. The ones supposed to be good at something are not always the ones that should be...

 

[Helldritch]

your the one making up the term 'late in development' you can choose to use if for half qay or you can uswe it for 3/4 or 90%... I just think half way isn't late (especially when it may NOT be half way since it isn't done yet).

Game development occurs before release. After that, you get minor adjustments or whatever, usually 2 or 3 years (maybe a bit later but rarely) after release. This is the late development phase where the designers will make an update to the game to reflect what is done out there. Note that computer games are way faster on updates. So yep, the Hex is late.

If I ran a game form level 3 to level 17 (and I have multi times) and I said "It was late in the game" I think most people would not think of the transition from 9th to 10th level.

I was talking about the game, not the campaign. Two different things.

no it hasn't... this is just out right a lie.
level 1-10 a hex blade has the same number of attacks 1 less feat or ASI and is missing action surge... thats it. in it's place they get multi mini feats (invocations) they get magic spells (at 5th level of power) and cantrips (including the single most powerful cantrip in the game)

You conveniently stop the comparison at level 10. Why stop there. Go to 20th.

okay... so why DON'T melee characters charge into melee and ranged characters take out ranged ones?

yup... and so (example) if I have a warlock and an archer... they will be targeting flying and/or ranged threats first.

then your melee characters fall back on ranged attacks (or close the distance)


unless your melee character can fly, teleport or ignore terrain... look at that melee casters advantage.

why would any enemy EVER be ignored? the melee characters will try to handle them... like with the above occasionally the melee characters are down or there are more melee villians... and the ranged characters back up to melee attacks.

rare in my experence but it happens...want to see ashocked DMwatch when the normal range is a wizard and a druid and the druid drops a combat cap wild shape and the wizard has bladsinger as his subclass... opps

In standard games yes. In gritty reality games, not so easy.

1d8+3... lol. the maticore can attack for 1d8+3 damage at 100 feet... well within archer eldritch blast and many spells... good luck killing a wizard with that.

last time I remember fighting a manticore we dropped it round 2 they only have about 60hp... maybe if you drop like 5 of them this would work (average 1d8+3 is 7.5. average 3rd level wizard is 17-20hp so it takes 3 good hits)

That same manticore attacks 3 times with tail spikes. The 3rd level wizard might be downed with 3 hits as early as round 1. The cleric/healer might go down in 2 rounds. One of which will be when the manticore attacks out of the range of most cantrips.

wait why can't a rouge sneak? why can't a rouge hide? heck why can't he already be hidden and sneaking (or invisible)

how often are your parties "Suprised" and why did none of them take alert or a weapon of warning at this point since it happens so often?

The rogue can sneak of course. But once combat is on, it is not easy to use sneak attack damage if you have no friend next to the target. Against a flying target, you have nothing. At best the rogue will hide one round (if some cover to break line of sight is there) and it means that he will be able to use sneak damage once more. I would not allow a rogue to hide under the same cover over and over again. The famous we're in the desert, there's a palm tree... I hide behind the palm tree as a bonus action and...

A weapon of warning? You have a magician mart? Not me. Alert feat? Why take that? Surprise is relatively rare already and we do side initiative. Way faster and much more interesting. That is an option in the DMG. It means that some feats become useless and/or less usable but I (my players included) do not mind.

 

[James Gasik]

Well... casting a ranged cantrip in melee already puts the caster at disadvantage. It is just adding the saved ones too. Note that melee cantrips are unaffected.


Which delays the 20 in main stat. And might favor different ways


? No dex penalty for wearing heavy armor.


Yep, and delays the 20...


Same here. Still searching for a good middle point.


Same here. This is one of the weak spots of 5ed. The ones supposed to be good at something are not always the ones that should be...

What he meant is, being bad in Dex is already a punishment. Why further penalize someone by affecting their AC in armor that doesn't benefit from high Dexterity?