D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

[Helldritch]

What he meant is, being bad in Dex is already a punishment. Why further penalize someone by affecting their AC in armor that doesn't benefit from high Dexterity?

Simply because I would have prefered to see heavy armor and all armor do something like this.
Light armor: Full dex bonus, removes one pts of damage for weapon attack (non magical).
Medium Armor: Max 2 dex bonus, removes 2 pts of damage from weapon attacks (non magical) Medium armor master allows 4 pts of dex.
Heavy Armor: Max dex 1, removes 3 pts of damage from weapon attacks. Heavy armor master allows 1 more points and works with magical weapon attacks.
With this, heavy armor character feels more protected but with low dex (dump stat) they can be hit more often but will suffer less damage. The design choice of not allowing a bit of Dex for heavy armor is not really accurate as though dex was restrained, you could still jump, roll and do all stuff that a high dex allows. There are a few videos that debunks the myth that heavy armor was so encumbering that you needed help just to saddle. A few armor like jousting were on that side, but not the plate armor that we see in the game.

I would also remove bonus initiative for a high dex. Dexterity, as it is, is the only stat that adds To skills, to hit, to damage, to AC and to initiatives.
Or go back as in 1ed. Strength adds to hit damage.
Dex adds to AC, to hit with ranged and to initiative.

There are many solutions to balance the stats. But for the moment, Dexterity reigns supreme.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Wizards I really think ought to be returned to their specialisation and forbidden style of schools, to prevent their giant spell lists from letting them be masters of all by locking out some of their options,

in 2e (I know I talk about it alot) there was a limit of how many spells they could know per level... but in practice that isn't MUCH of a limit. I think breaking wizard up into a hand full of classes is better. Heck just for subclass spread.

a beguiler can be an enchanter or an illusionist
a sage can be a transmuter or a diviner
a warmage can be an invocer or a conjurer
a swordmage (along with more combat options) could be a abjurer
obviusly a necromancer would need sub classes of necromancer.

Alternately wizards could be rebuilt to be mainly utility casters with limited direct combat options,

I like this, but only if we are rebuilding ALL classes and the assumption of the game that the pillars are more even... I don't want non combat classes in a 70% combat game.

I'm aware that there would be riots at even suggesting to nerf to the wizard but it's something that needs to happen one way or another.

tbh I am supprised I am not doxed and have protesters outside my home for my suggestion

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I would rather buff martials, but there are a lot of people who like non-casters just the way they are, thanks They don't need hoo yah kung fu or weird magic, just good armor, a strong piece of steel, and a "I'm too old for this fewmets" attitude to take on giants, dragons, and evil gods!

my thing is in a game with classes we SHOULD be able to keep simple weak outside of combat fighters AND have a class that wants a more tacticle and well rounded power house (Call it warblade/swordsage/martial/warlord/Dragon Master KNight)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Game development occurs before release. After that, you get minor adjustments or whatever, usually 2 or 3 years (maybe a bit later but rarely) after release. This is the late development phase where the designers will make an update to the game to reflect what is done out there. Note that computer games are way faster on updates. So yep, the Hex is late.

nope sorry I just outright disagree with your whole mentality.
something made a launch is made to begin with. SOmething made 4-6 years in to a 10+ year life span just isn't 'late' it is mid at best... and again if 2024 DOESN'T do a .5 or 6e (and I hope it does) it could be EARLY if they go 5 more years after that before 6e. (6 years into a 15 year life span is early... 7-8 years aka now is mid point)

You conveniently stop the comparison at level 10. Why stop there. Go to 20th.

why stop at the part of the game that most people play to?
why talk about the first half the game?
simple even if you are right and a 20th level fighter is equal to a 20th level war cleric or sword/valor bard or hexblade (and I don't believe it is) that doesn't make the first 10 levels fair when those classes out shine them.

tbh a 20th level fighter with all his feats, class and subclass features (2 action surges, 3 indomitables 4 attacks) BUT only have 10HD (so basicly taking every thing a scunching it down) and the prof of a 10th level character would be ABOUT equal to an optimized melee caster. IMO

In standard games yes. In gritty reality games, not so easy.

I ran 2 'gritty' games. 1 I made short rest require 8 hours of rest with food and water, and required 1 week in a safe place (base, town ect) with food water and recreational activities that didn't count as downtime and 1 I made the short rest as above but the long rest was 2 days with food/water/safty... neither of these effected ranged vs melee (but I will say the second one had casters and it DID curtail them.

That same manticore attacks 3 times with tail spikes.

okay I did miss read the multi attack that is my bad (like I said I don't memorize stats)

The 3rd level wizard might be downed with 3 hits as early as round 1.

could be... if you hit with all three. then again a 3rd level wizard crit by a big brute in melee can do that too... it happens just not all that often

The cleric/healer might go down in 2 rounds.

except you are not at 3 round (1 for wizard 2 for cleric...) and I can't imagine any of my group (maybe we just play too well or too high power...see name) takeing 3 rounds to drop a manticore with 60ish hp. that would mean the party is on average doing less then 20pts per round. I mean it's possible, but it would be a bad day.

One of which will be when the manticore attacks out of the range of most cantrips.

not all cantrips, and not any bows... and that is if no one can close the distance.

The rogue can sneak of course. But once combat is on, it is not easy to use sneak attack damage

in the years of 5e (and even most of 4e and a good portion of 3e not withstanding things immune to it) I have not seen many fights that rogues can't set up SA at least a few times per combat. in 5e it is crazy easy with ranged attacks (as long as not at max range for disadvantage) its called Aim. It is a bonus action that also uses your move (I think only mechanic that uses both) and you get advantage on the attack.

A weapon of warning? You have a magician mart?

who needs a magic mart? I didn't even have many items for sale (outside of what I imagine people who are not adventurers would make/sell) in 3e so I sure as heck am not in 5e...

Iwill say 1 DM I play under (about 1 in 3 campains) has a long running (back to 2e) tradition of having hidden magical societies that do sell items (sometimes its a plane thing, sometimes it's a black market it is always diffrent) and we almost always find it when we hit level 7-10... it is fun sometimes to find an item we want, then have to quest for what they want for it... My warlock wanted the staff of the Maji and had to get like 3 rare items and 50,000gp... funny thing is that the DM also rolled for random treasure and got me a robe of magic so I had like the 2 most powerful items in the game (and a 26 cha by the end)...

in 3.5 that same DM was big on magic mart/mages building items for you, so we did abuse that (might be part of what burnt us out of it) for like the last few years of 3.5 we always had belts of magnificencs and we had MORE then 1 belt +6 that was also a belt of healing AND a Belt of battle... that was so broken. Funny thing though, most times a wizard cleric or druid well made with much fewer items could run circles around non casters even with the most broken belt ever...

Alert feat? Why take that? Surprise is relatively rare already

because you keep talking like every fight IS surprise ambushes by your monsters. (I have DMed for people with alert feats, but tbh the only time a weapon of warning came up that I remember is in an adventure it was in)

and we do side initiative. Way faster and much more interesting.

I don't know what side initaitve is... does that mean you roll the best PC and all act on that then roll best monster and all act on that... cause I would NOT want all my pcs acting togather, anytime they won intiaitve I am sure they would make short work of my monsters (even if they don't kill them all they would hurt/kill enough that my return fire would be very weakened) I already throw what the book calls deadly encounters (level+4) and have few deaths or even major setbacks... no thanks.

It means that some feats become useless and/or less usable but I (my players included) do not mind.

wait... aren't you one of the people (and I am really asking because I confuse posters all the time when they take similar but not the same stance) that says the 2 extra feats over 20 levels (1 over 10 levels and 0 over 10 if the non fighter race gives it) is a balance point for fighters!?! if so how can nerfing feats help?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What he meant is, being bad in Dex is already a punishment. Why further penalize someone by affecting their AC in armor that doesn't benefit from high Dexterity?

correct.
low dex save is a killer (lots of high damage things are dex saves) low initiative hurts, and that is without an AC penelty. I don't know many people willing to play a dex 8 hero even WITH heavy armor (I wont say none becuse I personally did it once)

 

[Shardstone]

Are we still talking about balance and what it means to us?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Simply because I would have prefered to see heavy armor and all armor do something like this.
Light armor: Full dex bonus, removes one pts of damage for weapon attack (non magical).
Medium Armor: Max 2 dex bonus, removes 2 pts of damage from weapon attacks (non magical) Medium armor master allows 4 pts of dex.
Heavy Armor: Max dex 1, removes 3 pts of damage from weapon attacks. Heavy armor master allows 1 more points and works with magical weapon attacks.

1) I love it
2) I actually house ruled a varriant of this myself in 2 campagins (the two gritty ones no less)
if you have an alternative calculation AC (Barbarian, monk, mage armor) you subtracted 1 from all piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage (in case of mage armor you could up cast it and the subtract was the level of the spell you used so in theory someone dumb enough to burn a 9th level slot would reduce 9)
light armor reduced piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage by 2 and force/cold by 1
medium armor reduced piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage by 3 and force by 2
heavy armor piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage by 5 and force by 3

but then I had special materials that upgraded them and if you had magic + armor the + went to the damage reduction as well as AC, and magic weapons DID NOT ignore it but weapons made of Adamantine or Orichalcum did.

re are many solutions to balance the stats. But for the moment, Dexterity reigns supreme.

agreed

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Are we still talking about balance and what it means to us?

dude these threads drift alot... but yeah we should get back to that

 

[Maxperson]

Same here. This is one of the weak spots of 5ed. The ones supposed to be good at something are not always the ones that should be...

Expertise at their primary skill or one class skill of their choice is a good way to fix that. Clerics get religion, Wizards Arcana, etc.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Are we still talking about balance and what it means to us?

In a roundabout way - class balance is a thing because bad class balance can cause bad intra-party balance. EG if the wizard can do all the stuff the fighter can do and a bunch of other stuff, the fighter's player might feel left out because they picked the class that looked cool but was actually lame.

I, for one, haven't seen that in practice with 5e. But some people apparently have.