James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Verisimilitude if nothing else. If monsters act like disposable bags of hit points, who take insane risks and fight to the death, it becomes hard to see the game as a roleplaying experience in a living world.
D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?
- Thread starter James Gasik
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delericho
Legend
Ultimately, for me, balance is about who is most likely to have most fun playing the game.
As a rule, players who are more involved in the game are most likely to enjoy it. And players with more powerful characters are more likely to be involved in more of the action than those with weak ones.
Plus, in a mixed group, any imbalances are magnified - in addition to the greater confidence that automatically comes with more experience, those more experienced players are also likely to have a better handle on which options are stronger, and are also more likely build characters using those options well. All of which means they're likely to be more involved, and to enjoy the game that much more as a result.
(Of course, a group could try to counter that by giving Bob the newbie the Wizard to play an insisting that Alice the expert play the Ranger. But it never seems to work out like that.)
Balance will never be perfect, and it is a mistake to try to be too obsessive about it. But it is important.
As a rule, players who are more involved in the game are most likely to enjoy it. And players with more powerful characters are more likely to be involved in more of the action than those with weak ones.
Plus, in a mixed group, any imbalances are magnified - in addition to the greater confidence that automatically comes with more experience, those more experienced players are also likely to have a better handle on which options are stronger, and are also more likely build characters using those options well. All of which means they're likely to be more involved, and to enjoy the game that much more as a result.
(Of course, a group could try to counter that by giving Bob the newbie the Wizard to play an insisting that Alice the expert play the Ranger. But it never seems to work out like that.)
Balance will never be perfect, and it is a mistake to try to be too obsessive about it. But it is important.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
It's very rare, if ever, that I see a party of either all casters or all non-casters. They usually go for a mix, as in-character most halfway-wise adventurers soon come to realize you need a bit of everything sooner or later. (then again, the ratio of caster classes to non-caster classes is a bit more even in my game than it is in 5e)
Question: do the individual characters own the items after that division, or are they still considered as party possessions on loan?
It makes a big difference. In our games, once a treasury is divided the items claimed become owned outright by those who claim them (and, if necessary, win a roll-off); meaning that if a character leaves the party, that character's items go with it. The rare exception is when an item is too expensive for any single character to claim yet the party thinks it's just too useful to sell; what often happens here is a group of characters will buy shares in the item and later as more wealth is found one character will slowly buy the others out.
In the field before treasury division, sure. But when it comes time to divide that treasure back in town, if the Fighter ends up with both those items how are the others' shares made equal in value? Or do they just get ripped off?
I'd never have to worry about this in one part at least, as in my games Wizards can't use longswords...well, I suppose they can try, but they're a fumble-prone hazard to anyone near them.
If a Hexblade (whatever that is) casts arcane spells I'd rule, a la 1e, that it can't cast while wearing armour of any kind.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
again thats all I see... or at least 98% of what I see (unless you count level dips... I do see casters take 2 fighter levels for action surge)
in 5e you can make a 'fighter like' caster you can even play a fighter that IS a caster (I see more and more magic fighters subclasses)
this normally only comes up with a death or retire...let me go to the next to answer it.
in general if you die we take any equipment we would not consider iconci to you (We take your ring of prot and a random +1 bow, but if you have Skull Crusher the +1 mace you are known for...that most likely goes to your family or is buried with you)
If you retire it is up to you. I have seen it both ways. I have seen players retire characters and throw some or even most (never all) magic items 'back in the pot', but I have seen (and even once it was me) a player have there character walk out, retire and still have enough items to blind anyone dumb enough to cast detect magic.
we just don't consider magic items money. We split the money, and if no one can use an item we try to sell it (depending on world) or keep it to give away to an NPC... but it is never 'just gold value'. so none of my main group considers it a rip off... then again we rarely if ever are motivated for money. (If we are those are short lived characters... it is unheard of for us to go more then 3 levels without being rich enough to just go home and have our grandchildren not ever need to work... and that is before favors owed)
again your POV is odd because I have never played your version of D&D (Although I understand my 2e experience of about 7ish years is close) and you seem to have little to no experience with a modern 5e game or a 4e game
a Hex blade is a melee weapon using armor wearing shield using full caster.... it has 3-5 at will cantrips (one of witch can be the best cantrip in the game if they want... and it is long range high damage and force at that) they start with 1 1st level spell slot, but instead of prepping they can cast any spell they know (a limited amount) and then get a second slot at 2nd level... but those slots only take 10mins-an hour to refresh. So in theory if you have 2 fights then wait an hour then have 2 fights then wait an hour then have 2 fights they can use 1 slot per fight for 6 that day.
at 3rd level they don't get new slots BUT those 2 slots now count as 2nd level (they can still choose to use them as 1st but defult they are 2nd level) this progress continues with every odd level the slots go up until at 9th level they are 2 5th level slots that come back every hour or so. at 11th they no longer go up a level they instead get a 3rd, and I think it is 17th they get there 4th. HOWEVER at level 11 and every odd after they get to pick 1 spell to use 1/day... a 6th at 11th a 7th at 13th ext... until they have 1 9th level spell... each of these are a single spell they know, but they keep learning 1st-5th level spells at these levels too.
they also every 2 or 3 levels get invocations... thing that make there cantrips better or give them spells from other lists (sometimes at will sometimes 1/day sometimes at the cost of one of those slots that recharge in an hour) now they don't technically GET for free a 2nd attack like other martial classes, but one of those invocations (with a prereaq of 5th level) gives them a 2nd attack
TLDR: hex blades sing "anything you can do I can do better...I can do anything better then you" to fighters.
Vaalingrade
Legend
But no one is there to see the DM wasting their time with recovery.
Helldritch
Hero
To slow down the progress of melee characters or to prevent them from reaching their ranged and or bosses.
It works both ways.
Take a standard group, 3rd level encountering 6 hobgoblins in a room. The hobgoblins win the initiative.
Two goes to the door and block it. Both dodges.
4 start shooting at back ranked characters or even melee characters depending on the situation.
Now it is the character's turn. The back ranked character may try to shoot the archer, but the front line ones must get rid of the dodgers. Easier said than done. At AC 18, and dodging these hobgoblins now have an AC equivalent to 23. One of the front rank can use the help action to give the other one a normal chance to attack an AC 18 which is not that easy for 3rd level characters.
Expand a bit more. Use of Orogs. Characters are now level 6 or 7.
Same AC. Same situation. But now instead of dodging, the two front line orogs now grapple one of the front liners and simply put him behind them. (If they succeed). One of the grapplers will also drop down with the players, prone. Now one of the front liner is surrounded by 6 angry orogs, four of which will attack our grappled character with advantage... And if a pit is near, the grapplers might decide to show the grappled one how deep is the pit... Grappling is especially hard for casters and they want to avoid it as much as possible. Remember that spells with somatic component requires a free hand, which grapplers do not have. This restricts casting to Verbal spells only of which there are not many...
For the character's side.
Characters can benefit from the dodge action because it reduces the amount of hit they can take.
When you do not recover full HP on rest, you must spend HD to heal. These are a finite resource.
Yes, a healer can heal. Be it a bard, druid, or cleric but doing so makes it that they do not use their spell for other things.
If then, healing is a finite resource, and you recover only half of your HD per days of rest, you want to lose as few as possible and to maximize both defense and damage potential. As if you have to spend more than half your HD on a given day, it might mean that you will start with less than full HD the next one. This can lead to a death spiral as you have less and less resources to "press on".
Since players know that most intelligent foes will do their utmost to prevent the whack a mole, as soon as they get lower than 50%, they start to dodge, why? To prevent being hit too often allowing the healer to heal them back up if necessary or to allow other to finish the enemy with ranged attacks. Otherwise, they know that each hit would reduce both their HP and their HD resource. Cantrip and ranged attacks are really useful as are summons and others to mitigate and dish out damage. Characters will use shove, push and any other ways at their disposal to break enemy formation or allow friends to get advantage on their attacks. A rogue with advantage on the attack is deadly. Especially if a Battlemaster is there to "order" him to attack again on his turn (allowing a second sneak attack with advantage).
Yes, attack is the best defense. But when you know that after that you might gimp yourself for the next fight and the next, you start thinking about ways to extend your resources. Faced with enemies that tries to survive and "win" you have to adapt and do the same. This means that an all attack stance at all times is doomed to failure in the long term.
Helldritch
Hero
Wrong. When players makes forays and retreat. They often come back with enemies still hurt from the last fight. With healers, players have the advantage of a faster recovery time. It really depends on the style of game you play.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
this sounds like GREAT tactics. it of course doesn't stop "Fireball coming on line" but few things do (although if one of those archers can counter spell that could)
However this is WHY i don't want to do group initiative. 6 hobgoblins all in a room. if all 4 of those hobgoblins at range target 1 character (we will even say the fighter) that can be 4d8+4 (8-36 damage average 22) if those last two had shot instead of dodged that would have added another 2d8+2 (4-18 average 11) and that could end a character even at 5th level (5th level fighter with 10+4d10+10 hp has 24-60hp avg by book 48) and where on this end that looks like itshould make EVERY character think twice about getting into a fight imagine the reverse...
my team on saterday even weeks is 3 artificers (1 multi with cleric) a druid and a paliden/hexblade... we can open up at 7th level with 100 pts of damage easy (more if we drop big spells or get lucky) if we all got to go first and all attack at once we would focus and 100% turn most encounters into jokes.
Helldritch
Hero
To the bolded part...
Up until a foe cast anti-magic field, or you encounter a beholder, or you are faced with other casters that shuts you down with counter spells. Then the fighter looks at you and say: " Welcome to Helldritch's type of games."
This is the problem with an all caster party. Too much reliance on magic will lead to these type of encounters very fast.
Or even worse, you fight in a wild magic zone... Now the fun begins for casters. This is what happened last game to one of my group. The Hexblade and the wizards were almost crying "UNFAIR!". While the fighter and ranger were not deter one iota about the situation.
Helldritch
Hero
Again, yes you are absolutely right.
But if you enforce the 6-8 encounters per day, then these resources are unavailable for the next encounter, and the next and the next and so on. At which point will your player die because they lacked resources to simply have spare resources to fight if their rest is interupted by the 6th or 8th encounter?
Ho look, we are low on resources after two fights, let's have a long rest... This have been the death of many groups I have seen. Even in 5ed. A gritty game with resource management offers this. You can even go further with a short rest is a day and a long one is a week. This is even deadlier than what I do. But this helps more short rest classes than long rest ones.
