D&D General Travel In Medieval Europe

[Hussar]

I don't expect D&D to make 100% sense all of the time, heck the real world doesn't make 100% sense all of the time. But thinking there would be no roads connecting major cities because there's also the option of using a boat simply is not a valid assumption.

But, that's not my argument. I totally agree that there would be roads. What I disagreed with is that you would have this huge, major, and above all REALLY EXPENSIVE highway like the Trade Way - a paved road wide enough for two wagons, stretching from Toronto to Miami all along the coast.

 

[Hussar]

At every turn, you've twisted these statements around and asked hyperbolic rhetorical questions that mostly just make it seem like you skimmed our posts and then replied with some offhand snark rather than actual engagement.

Please stop. I'm asking politely. Please stop. No one else seems to have any issues with my replies. I seem to be having a pretty civil conversation with everyone else. So, in light of the fact that you've already received one Mod warning, please stop responding to me.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The irony....


Anyway, I've been thinking about it, and I think that itineraries might be an excellent way to dig into regions within a setting. Rather than just handwaving travel in safe areas, name the roads and the stops along the way.

There are a few points in the Aquisitions Inc The C Team campaign where Jerry does a great job of this, naming roads and how they connect different little towns, and giving an idea of what these different towns do and trade with eachother, etc.

Especially helpful if you want to start small at the beginning of a campaign, and even moreso if you want the players to participate in worldbuilding by giving names and attributes to the next town on the itinerary.

 

[Oofta]

But, that's not my argument. I totally agree that there would be roads. What I disagreed with is that you would have this huge, major, and above all REALLY EXPENSIVE highway like the Trade Way - a paved road wide enough for two wagons, stretching from Toronto to Miami all along the coast.

I honestly don't know enough FR lore to speak to this. About all I know is what I need to for AL (i.e. not much).

On the other hand, the Romans built really amazing roads that if properly maintained lasted for centuries. With the aid of magic ... I don't know. Maybe not all that unreasonable? But again, not an FR junky.

 

[Hussar]

I honestly don't know enough FR lore to speak to this. About all I know is what I need to for AL (i.e. not much).

On the other hand, the Romans built really amazing roads that if properly maintained lasted for centuries. With the aid of magic ... I don't know. Maybe not all that unreasonable? But again, not an FR junky.

Is it possible? Oh, sure. I mean, heck, if we want to go the magic route, simply using a lot of Wall of Stone spells could make one HELL of a road. But, most people aren't real thrilled about that level of magic in the setting.

Is it plausible? That you have a very expensive, highly traveled route stretching from Toronto to Miami (a tad farther than Boston to New York mind you) through monster infested territory, considered some of the most dangerous lands in Faerun, when all the major points on the road are all major sea ports. I don't think so.

Are there real world routes overland? Of course. The Tea Horse road in China was used for centuries to transport tea to Tibet in return for horses bred there. Fantastic effort. Totally understandable. But, you'll notice, decidely lacking in a water route which kinda explains the land route. I am somewhat unaware of that major land route paralleling the Nile in Egypt, for example. Or that major land route next to the Mississipi, as another example. So on and so forth.

 

[Tonguez]

.

Are there real world routes overland? Of course. The Tea Horse road in China was used for centuries to transport tea to Tibet in return for horses bred there. Fantastic effort. Totally understandable. But, you'll notice, decidely lacking in a water route which kinda explains the land route. I am somewhat unaware of that major land route paralleling the Nile in Egypt, for example. Or that major land route next to the Mississipi, as another example. So on and so forth.

Both the Silk Road and the Maritime Silk Road operated in parralel linking China to India and the Middle East (and hence Europe), with the Maritime route linking in the lucrative SEA Spice islands. So such parralel routes werent entirely unknown or implausible.

Look I appreciate your commitment to playing devils advocate in tnis thread but denying the effects of magic and gods ad nauseum renders the discussion moot.

For the DnD worlds there a gods of roads and trade, with rich temples that like investing tneir gold in public works projects. The idea that the Church of Waukeen invests in maintaining a coastal road and regular postal stops (inns) in conjunction with the help of local governments, merchant companies, and other wandering adventure bands is plausible in the DnD melieux - and as this thread has demonstrated repeatedly while they may not be on so large a scale, there are real world examples to aid justificatiom

 

[MGibster]

I ran an Acquisitions, Inc. campaign set on the sword coast. The big campaign baddie took over the seas between Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep and demanded tribute for passing ships. The alternative for traders was to use the road, but this cut more deeply into their profits than just paying the sea toll.

 

[Hussar]

Both the Silk Road and the Maritime Silk Road operated in parralel linking China to India and the Middle East (and hence Europe), with the Maritime route linking in the lucrative SEA Spice islands. So such parralel routes werent entirely unknown or implausible.

Look I appreciate your commitment to playing devils advocate in tnis thread but denying the effects of magic and gods ad nauseum renders the discussion moot.

For the DnD worlds there a gods of roads and trade, with rich temples that like investing tneir gold in public works projects. The idea that the Church of Waukeen invests in maintaining a coastal road and regular postal stops (inns) in conjunction with the help of local governments, merchant companies, and other wandering adventure bands is plausible in the DnD melieux - and as this thread has demonstrated repeatedly while they may not be on so large a scale, there are real world examples to aid justificatiom

But, the Silk road isn't actually a road. It's a collection of routes used by various traders at various points in time. It certainly isn't a paved, double lane road.

And, again, this all started with the notion that large numbers of people travelled great distances in Medieval periods. Which is directly contradicted in the first three minutes of the video that was posted that states that about 90% of your population in Europe are farmers (of various sorts) and can't travel.

Granted, that still leaves lots of people who can travel true. But, I'm pretty sure that only a tiny, tiny percentage of the people born in Britain from, say, 1000 AD to 1500 AD ever set foot in the Holy Land. I'd be pretty shocked if it was more than 1%. And, probably a heck of a lot less than one percent.

 

[Faolyn]

Is it possible? Oh, sure. I mean, heck, if we want to go the magic route, simply using a lot of Wall of Stone spells could make one HELL of a road. But, most people aren't real thrilled about that level of magic in the setting.

Is it plausible? That you have a very expensive, highly traveled route stretching from Toronto to Miami (a tad farther than Boston to New York mind you) through monster infested territory, considered some of the most dangerous lands in Faerun, when all the major points on the road are all major sea ports. I don't think so.

So you really believe the following:

One: Nobody tries to patrol the roads to try to make them safer. No ranger patrol, no marshals employed by the local nobility, no interested religious groups or secular factions who see it as their duty to protect travelers. Nobody.

Two: Everyone has the money and inclination to use a boat, even though the oceans are equally dangerous and monster-infested, plus you can run out of fresh water and possibly drown or have all of your goods fall to the bottom of the sea.

Three: That this road is always in perfect condition and made out of the most expensive of materials, and can't possibly consist of local roads that have been connected over the centuries and given the name "The Trade Road" and is in various states of repair or disrepair depending on the location.

By the way, are you aware that this road doesn't stop in Baldur's Gate? It continues down to Calimport. If Calimport wanted to take a boat to Waterdeep, it would have to go through incredibly treacherous waters filled with "shoals, currents, small exposed or submerged islets, and other hazards [...] most of the islands were surrounded by perilous reefs." (So sayeth the FR wiki) The wiki goes on to say that Asavir's channel is a well-traveled sea lane but treacherous because of the many pirates.

Hmm, it's almost like this road was at least partly made so that people could travel between Calimport and Waterdeep without having to go only through incredibly dangerous waters and risk losing their entire cargo. Baldur's Gate is just a stop along the path.

Actually, by your logic, nobody should be using either road or boat to travel, because both Waterdeep and Calimport are famed for their Spelljamming ports. They have the two largest ports in Faerun! Everyone should be traveling and trading by spaceship!

 

[pemerton]

It's also worthwhile to note that trade along those roadways still happened. So it clearly had a good enough profit margin to be viable.

I'm pretty sure that the Roman Empire built roads as a public good (in some sense of that phrase), at a net fiscal cost to the state. To the best of my understanding, the roads weren't paying for themselves in virtue of tolls they generated or even taxes levied on the trade that they may have generated.

And the public good the Roman Empire acted on, as I understand it, was not that their roads would make small-scale local trade viable. It was that roads permitted the imposition of imperial administration and the projection of imperial power. In this respect Roman roads seem to bear some resemblance to Britain's maintenance of its navy, which depended heavily on indirect taxation levied within Britain, not on the navy having to generate sufficient revenue to pay for itself.