D&D 5E What is Quality?

[Ovinomancer]

The problem is that, with gaming, even this is so subjective (relative to more than just my own personal belief) as to be REALLY hard to pin down for a company.

Take expertise. I like the mechanic, find it easy to implement and really like the fact that it gives rogues a leg up in the skills department. And I like the fact that other classes can get it - but a significant enough cost so as to both require thought AND to not impinge on the rogue. So, for me, it is quite good - I use it without modification of any kind.

Yet, there is disagreement - as seen here. Plenty of people seem to think it's a lousy mechanic that needs to be either thrown out or completely reworked.

Wait, so an individual's appreciation of a rule as good or not is subjective, right, but that individual's appreciation of the general opinion of the rule is not subjective?

 

[Jacob Lewis]

What is quality?

A: It's that thing everyone expects at all times but never wants to pay for.

 

[Mort]

Wait, so an individual's appreciation of a rule as good or not is subjective, right, but that individual's appreciation of the general opinion of the rule is not subjective?

Not quite sure what you're getting at?

I was just saying that with respect to rules quality itself is subjective. Such that I, for example, I have about 2 pages of houserules for 5e. I think the rules overall work. Certainly enough to need minimal tinkering. I consider it a quality rules set. Whereas I've seen people on this board claim they have dozens to over a hundred pages of houserules. Someone who has a hundred pages of houserules probably doesn't think of the original rules as quality rules (though why they're still with 5e at that point? no idea.)

 

[payn]

Not quite sure what you're getting at?

I was just saying that with respect to rules quality itself is subjective. Such that I, for example, I have about 2 pages of houserules for 5e. I think the rules overall work. Certainly enough to need minimal tinkering. I consider it a quality rules set. Whereas I've seen people on this board claim they have dozens to over a hundred pages of houserules. Someone who has a hundred pages of houserules probably doesn't think of the original rules as quality rules (though why they're still with 5e at that point? no idea.)

A stretch maybe, but they could think its so quality they can make 100 pages of houserules and the foundation still holds. Na, probably a stretch.

 

[LadyElect]

That's why I bolded that bit. That's what I found strange. If you're just saying "people often use different rules for different campaigns", sure.

Ah, yes, I only meant to suggest doing it across something like 5E’s lifetime and not some madhouse mid-campaign mixups.

It likely would have been better conveyed if I included the intended implication of [overall/campaign] variety’s sake rather than give the impression I thought the variety of rules themselves was the hook.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

so what is quality, and does sales matter?

lets jump into multiverse theory here... earth A has Rob A and earth B has Rob B...

both are conseved on a one night stand... but the mom on earth A has the nerve to go to the rich man that knocked her up and say "You have a son" and earth B doesn't she raises him as a single mom in an okay environment

Both robs have an idea for a story. They want to write it, and maybe even make it a trilogy. The story is 100% the same. Remember this is the same story/novel.

Rob A gets it written by 25 and his dad pulls some strings and a publisher puts it out. They even put it out at a time when book sales will be low. Rob A and his dad also purchase copies of the book day 1 and donate them to libraries... lots of them thousands of them. His dad then pulls some strings and gets 2 local highschools to add the book to the reading list for Jrs that year... and then they buy a bunch themselves and BOOM new york times best seller list.... there is this guy who has some pull in Holly wood and he wants the dad's attention so he buys the option for the book to be a movie (he doesn't care if it even gets made) but this triggers some slow news days to do reports on this new up and coming book "Best seller turning into a movie" and that gets more sold...

BUT THE BOOK IS AWESOME, and even with that kick start it just keeps going... months of best seller's the movie rocks and Rob A gets to write some comics and TV shows and put out his next two books.


Rob B doesn't have the same free time, so he doesn't get it written as quick, but by 28 he has (the EXACT SAME AWESOME book) it written. He however can't get an agent and gets a few rejection letters... he is still an awesome writer and tries to write some short fiction and start a tick tok and a youtube channel... he even gets an okay following. He finally self publishes the (exact same) book by 30, and sells a few hundred books over the next few years. it never goes anywhere and he has to save up and use kick starter to get the second book published... but it misses the goal.


so Rob A and Rob B wrote the same book... how can 1 be "HIGHER QUALITY" shown by the sales? Even discounting the cheating the system for the first few weeks people loved the book who read it (on both earth a and earth b) but if we say sales is the rule of thumb for quility somehow the exact same story changes quality...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes, Coke from Mexico still uses cane sugar. I do enjoy it more. Its fairly available in the U.S. but nowhere near the U.S. high fructose syrup variety. Also, Mexican coke is made in glass bottles.

also if you are diabetic (even though it doesn't seem true) the cane suger is better for your body then diet coke from the states.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Not quite sure what you're getting at?

I was just saying that with respect to rules quality itself is subjective. Such that I, for example, I have about 2 pages of houserules for 5e. I think the rules overall work. Certainly enough to need minimal tinkering. I consider it a quality rules set. Whereas I've seen people on this board claim they have dozens to over a hundred pages of houserules. Someone who has a hundred pages of houserules probably doesn't think of the original rules as quality rules (though why they're still with 5e at that point? no idea.)

That people say that they think a rule is good but they changed it for whatever reason indicating that it wasn't good for them. You seem to want to classify the latter as subjective but the former is just as subjective a claim -- there's no way to tell if the general public feels the rule is good.

To me, two pages of houserules is excessive. Now, that's a more recent thing for me -- prior versions of me had similar or even more. But, prior me also almost exclusively played D&D, so I needed to move it to different places. It never really worked out for me, but I didn't have a good benchmark. I now play multiple games, and pick the game for what it delivers rather than hoping I can change it. 5e is still an overall good game because I can run it to get to what I want without any real changes (my houserules tend to 1 or 2 thematic changes these days, and those are half a page at most). But it's not good if I want something other than what it delivers.

And, to be clear, 5e to me delivers low to moderate challenge skilled play within a directed story experience -- the GM's job is to deliver exciting content to be consumed and to manage pacing and challenge to maintain excitement. I don't reach for 5e for high challenge play (I'd reach for an older edition or a different game altogether) or if I want to really get into character interactions and who the characters are and what they care about.

 

[payn]

also if you are diabetic (even though it doesn't seem true) the cane suger is better for your body then diet coke from the states.

I have never been able to enjoy diet soda. I just stopped drinking soda period to get my sugar levels down. I do have one or two a year around holidays.

 

[Darrin Drader]

5E is absolutely a quality RPG. I support my position with the following arguments:

• Ryan Dancey famously described 3rd edition as a half hour of fun condensed into four hours. In other words, the rules gave you all kinds of amazing options, but the class/feat structure created a lot of bloat that slowed gameplay way down. Yes, it was player friendly in all the right ways, but it just didn't move as fast as previous editions, even when you had the experience at the table. 5E eliminated so much of the bloat. While it still doesn't play quite as fast as Basic, 1E, or 2E, it's pretty close.
• Along with rules bloat, 3rd edition has math bloat, and the math fell apart at high levels. They pretty much fixed this with 4E, but that edition wasn't as nearly as popular as 5E.
• D&D is more popular than it ever has been in the history of the game, which is almost fifty years old now.
• In terms of production values, the books are attractive, the art is top-notch, and it's not riddled with editing and spelling errors.
• Like almost every RPG out there, a good DM can use the rules to present any sort of play style they prefer.
• It's very easy to use modules and setting material from previous editions right out of the box. Modifications to make it work with 5E can be done on the fly.

Now, this reasoning is highly subjective, but that will be true with an metrics you use to justify quality. For me, it's the edition I'd rather be playing.