D&D 5E What is Quality?

[Lanefan]

So ... what you are saying is that to that person, that art is superior, because it has more emotional value.

Or are you saying that we cannot value art for its power to evoke emotion, but only for its technical merit? That a Dutch Master (for example) will always and forever be "better" and "more quality" than folk art, no matter how powerfully that art moves you?

Technical merit defines quality. Evokation of emotion - good or bad - defines something else.

There are, for example, some bands I very much dislike the sound of. At the same time, however, I willingly concede that much of their music is of excellent technical quality and is both written and played at a high degree of musical skill and mastery.

Quality does not equate to emotional response, or enjoyment, or pleasure given/received.

Wouldn't this always and forever privilege the canon of western-style art that has been taught?

Technical quality is technical quality regardless of the style.

Or are you saying that we cannot value the expertise in someone who understands how to make great art, but is deliberately breaking the rules?

Deliberately breaking the rules can sometimes result in examples of high technical quality, where someone in effect expands the techniques of something or even invents a new one.

If today's temperature is 98 degrees, and yesterday it was 80 degrees, then today it is HOTTER than yesterday. The temperature is, quite literally, a fact that is dictated to you. You can't argue with it.

Indeed. The same is true of the technical merit of a piece of art or a song, or the quality of parts and construction used in a car: whether you like the end result or not, you can't argue with the fact that merit - that quality - exists.

 

[Lanefan]

but do you understand the objective info you got is a number on a scale we made up right...

Without those made-up scales how are we supposed to make useful and objective comparisons between things we can't conveniently line up next to each other and eyeball, or between things where memory might have faded regarding one or more of the comparitors? Examples of such might be:

--- whether the highest point in Oregon is higher or lower than the highest point in Alberta (feet and meters are made-up scales, remember)
--- whether the temperature today in Victoria BC is (not "feels", "is") warmer, cooler, or the same as it was on this date last year
--- whether I'm getting the same gas mileage from my car now vs 5 years ago (assuming I keep good records, which I do)

We need ways of measuring and-or quantifying that which is objective, and that's why we've made up all these scales.

 

[Lanefan]

and the entire argument is about ALL of this is the difference between subjective and objective... at no point did I say "90 is lower then 80, or 5 is less then 10" what I said is how hot or cold it is isn't something that can be measured universally by a scale we made up

Not is, feels.

That's the difference. You can universally measure what the temperature is but you can't universally measure* how that temperature feels to everyone who is experiencing it.

* - though you can get a bit closer via factoring in windspeed, cloud cover, humidity and various other things to get a "feels like" temperature, which is what these weather channels try to do. This still doesn't tell you what each individual person or creature out there actually feels, though, as two people can perceive and-or react to the same thing - in this case, the weather conditions - very differently.

 

[Lanefan]

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[Lanefan]

B. June 6, 2008- the release of 4e. Do you know what else happened between the announcement of the product and the release? The Great Recession. Not the best time to release a new product (especially when you were hoping for sweet recurring subscriber revenue).

This is a factual error. The crash of 2008 in fact occurred in September that year, and the recession followed from that.

Still crappy timing for 4e, but it had already been released and on the market for 3 months when the recession began.

 

[Hussar]

Let me turn this around- if your child makes you a drawing, and dies shortly after, is that art more important to you than a Leonardo you see in the museum?

Since when does importance = quality?

Something can be very low quality, but still meaningful and important. However, no matter how important it is to me personally, doesn't suddenly make my brains fall out the side of my head and claim that my child's art is of higher quality than a Leonardo.

 

[Hussar]

The problem with the notion that qualitative elements cannot be objectively gauged is that it ignores some pretty large areas where it's done all the time.

Take teaching. Teachers evaluate qualitative elements all the time. A significant portion of your grade is the result of qualitative assessements Now, if qualitative assessments were subjective, then the assessments you received should vary widely depending on the assessor. So, you might get a great grade in one year, but a failing grade in the next year despite producing the same quality of work simply because these assessments are subjective.

Since that doesn't actually happen (barring other issues of course - it does happen but it is usually indicative of some sort of problem) and people's grades, by and large remain fairly stable throughout their academic career and even across different instructors and schools. So, how does this happen? Well, based on the experience of the teachers and the massive body of experience collectively over the years, objective standards are created judging benchmarks for students. A student in Year X should be able to perform Task Y with a reasonable level of competency.

Sure, it's vague and wibbly wobbly, but, it works. And it works very, very well. The idea that only numerical, quantitative elements can be assessed leads to standardized, multiple choice testing and absolutely horrible academic results. All because people insist that only numbers can be objective. It's simply not true. We can create all sorts of very objective standards - common person standards are prevalent in law for example - that, while certainly not as precise as a quantitative assessment - are still objective in their application.

The world is full of qualitative assessments that are objective.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

52 years of life and I've never had someone ask me if it's warm or cold in an area that they could feel the temperature at. It's not a question people ask.

no one ever asked you "Hey I'm getting dressed is it warm out?" never? I don't know if I should not believe you or feel sorry for you

Now, if someone asks if it's going to be warm this weekend and I tell them that it's going to be 60, they KNOW that it's not going to be warm. If I tell them that it will be 80. They KNOW that it will be warm. The number conveys that information. 60 may not be cold to someone on an individual level, but they will still know from being told that number whether or not they will be cold.

I honestly don't even understand what you are argueing anymore. you are now ignoreing that without the context of the rest of teh weather those numbers don't convey the answers.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This is a factual error. The crash of 2008 in fact occurred in September that year, and the recession followed from that.

Still crappy timing for 4e, but it had already been released and on the market for 3 months when the recession began.

The Great Recession started in December, 2007.

Bear Stearns announced the implosion of certain hedge funds in July of 2007. That's when the writing was on the wall that lead to its collapse in March of 2008.

You are thinking about TARP and bailouts - a later policy response to the carnage that had been happening for almost a full year. But there had already been a full year of massive contractions, stock market losses, and job losses.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Without those made-up scales how are we supposed to make useful and objective comparisons between things we can't conveniently line up next to each other and eyeball, or between things where memory might have faded regarding one or more of the comparitors?

i didn't say the numbers are 100% usless. I am just saying that by itself it is only a single peace of information that if true or not still can mislead. It also needs other information with it or it isn't the whole story.

Examples of such might be:

--- whether the highest point in Oregon is higher or lower than the highest point in Alberta (feet and meters are made-up scales, remember)

and where those numbers do have a meaning (and yes made up) it CAN be useful in theory... but it doesn't answer the question "WOW, how steep of a climb is that?"

--- whether the temperature today in Victoria BC is (not "feels", "is") warmer, cooler, or the same as it was on this date last year

is useful for study, but wont help me decide if I need a jacket.

--- whether I'm getting the same gas mileage from my car now vs 5 years ago (assuming I keep good records, which I do)

and again where in theory that can be useful (although since all cars loose gas milage I am not sure how or why) it doesn't answer "How much do I need to fill my tank?"

We need ways of measuring and-or quantifying that which is objective, and that's why we've made up all these scales.

and they are ONLY good at measuring 1 bit of information... the stink at answering any question OTHER than "what is the measurement of X"

they can be PART of an answer to more. They can be used as a tool to answer more, but they in and of themselves are not answers to anything other then "On this made up scale what is the number we assign it?"