D&D General IS the 5 min work day a feature or a bug?

[Mort]

Is it? I think you're downplaying how hard it is to actually stop a group of players from doing anything if they are united in wanting to do it. If you have a group of players who nova out and want to rest after an encounter how do you stop them? Throw wandering monsters at them when they're down to no resources and end up with a TPK? TPKs are a great way to end a gaming group, especially if the players think that the DM is picking on them when they're down or playing "unfairly".

It's tricky to handle these kinds of things in game - these are the kinds of things that as you point out need to be discussed in advance. Or after the fact - the DM saying "hey guys I don't think it's much fun that you keep maxing out your abilities and then camping right afterwards" probably goes a lot farther to getting a game everyone wants to play than in game tactics to "stop players from dictating the pace of play". Especially when to a large degree the game is based on the players dictating the pace of play everywhere else.

All it takes is realistic consequences. And the world moving regardless of what the players are intent on doing.

For ex. If the PCs anger the Duke he'll send men after them. These men WILL NOT come on the PCs schedule and will make it a point to catch them unprepared, exhausted, whatever (they've dealt with adventurers and are not idiots).

Or the fact that the Hermits big bad ritual of world destruction isn't going to conveniently happen when the party is rested and at full power.

Stuff like that.

Now is that always going to be the case? No, the party SHOULD get the opportunity to flex every once in a while, it's fun and shows the players what they can really do. PLUS it also lets the DM really let loose with some big stuff that he might not otherwise get to. So great all around.

As for a group that doesn't like the 5 minute workday playstyle. Well, the DM can certainly, easily accommodate, though I would think (or at least hope) they get tired of it eventually.

 

[Jer]

Yeah I think they just need consistency either way for that, but WotC's irrational fixation on building some classes to not have any resources at all or close to it (which I think applies to almost all Rogue subclasses, and several Fighter ones), together with the fact that some classes with some resources can nova massively harder than others (compare and contrast Paladin and Ranger, for example), will, if unchecked, leave this problem as a big problem.

I don't think it's an irrational fixation - it was a reactionary move back from 4e to a "safe" position for 5e and now they're stuck with that design decision to a large degree. The decision to make the "core chassis" for rogues and fighters to have no resources to spend tied their hands - if they'd built battle dice into the rogue and the fighter core from the start they'd have more options but they didn't.

(Also they gave the spellcasting classes too many spell slots IMO, and didn't factor in how the scaling of cantrip damage would affect the game, but that's another story).

 

[Asisreo]

do you know any individuals that have told you directly or indirectly the 5 m work day is good or what they want?

It's a tool I use for various reasons, depending on the circumstances.

Usually, during travel sequences, players might forget the land is dangerous and uncaring. So sometimes, you throw a 3x deadly encounter at them (relevant to the area/worldbuilding/plot) and when they realize they might have died even when starting the fight with full resources, they'll probably want to actually move rather than act lackadaisical.

Sometimes, you want basically a "story fight" where there really isn't much challenge, but a fight makes sense narratively and the satisfaction comes from the narrative resolution. Like fighting that one group of bandits that killed the parents of the one loner character.

 

[Blue]

Speaking about resource-attrition games like D&D only. This changes a lot when resources are not used up or automatically refresh every scene.

If classes are balanced like in 4e, where each has the same amount of resources and the same recovery conditions, then a 5 minute work day is neutral.

If the classes have different resource recovery mechanisms and strength of at-wills where designer math is assuming a certain number of combat encounters (meeting a minimum challenge/length so resources are actually used), then a 5 minute work day increases imbalance between classes without corresponding mechanical benefit and is therefore bad.

A quick example of the second one - I have one 5e DM who likes to keep tension up. Once things are moving, his adventure design never really allows a short rest. This put disadvantage on short-rest recovery primary classes like the monk and warlock so that they were never played, and on some other classes like the fighter (esp. some subclasses like the Battlemaster) to make them less common choices.

 

[TwoSix]

in my case I have not only never heard someone directly say it, but I have found even people who seem to enjoy using that mode of play DENIE liking it.

No one likes the resting afterwards part, but no one likes being denied the "ability to go nova" part.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Shrug

It is why all features should be recharge features.

We currently use it in our mod for jinxes (attack/damage cantrips) and find it very appealing.

 

[Mort]

in another thread I responded to this but I think it deserves it's own thread



I have to ask, forgetting a moral argument of what is or isn't right, and forgetting how you as a DM CAN CHOOSE to do things... do you know any individuals that have told you directly or indirectly the 5 m work day is good or what they want?



in my case I have not only never heard someone directly say it, but I have found even people who seem to enjoy using that mode of play DENIE liking it.

I've never had a player directly request they 5 minute workday or even SAY they liked it.

BUT I have had players ask if there is a follow-up encounter or if there's a big issue with them NOVaing. And then being really happy if I look at the group and say something like "this is the big one, so smoke em if you've got 'em."

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't think it's an irrational fixation - it was a reactionary move back from 4e to a "safe" position for 5e and now they're stuck with that design decision to a large degree. The decision to make the "core chassis" for rogues and fighters to have no resources to spend tied their hands - if they'd built battle dice into the rogue and the fighter core from the start they'd have more options but they didn't.

Yeah I guess that's a better way of putting it - their base chassis design there was a bad one. They should have gone with Battlemaster as the base chassis for Fighter, and made it so different Fighters spent the dice differently, Champion could have like, only one way to spend them, and it's extra damage or something (it would probably be a more effective subclass to boot).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yeah I guess that's a better way of putting it - their base chassis design there was a bad one. They should have gone with Battlemaster as the base chassis for Fighter, and made it so different Fighters spent the dice differently, Champion could have like, only one way to spend them, and it's extra damage or something (it would probably be a more effective subclass to boot).

it would make champion look alot like4e slayer

 

[delericho]

In 5e, it's a bug. The differing recovery mechanisms for powers means that class balance, in as much as it exists at all, depends on having 6-8 encounters per day. But the game does nothing to discourage the main spellcasters from blowing through all their big powers, overshadowing everyone else in 1-2 encounters, and then forcing a rest on the others.

If they do indeed move to "PB times per day" for all powers in 5.5e then it will become a feature. I don't think that would be an improvement, but YMMV.