D&D General IS the 5 min work day a feature or a bug?

[Crimson Longinus]

That makes the problem worse as you scrub out options in resources.

The point is if you want attrition gameplay, you should only allow classes that manage resources: Barbarian Scoundrel, Cleric, Wizard

Every class has attrition in the form of HP though, so they all have incentive to rest sooner or later.

 

[payn]

Every class has attrition in the form of HP though, so they all have incentive to rest sooner or later.

PF2 made out of combat healing trivial. It works much like past D&D at the earliest levels, but a few feats in and you can pretty much restore all health as long as you can short rest (which is only limited by the environment and/or GM.) Its basically encounter powers with no short rest limit so it turns out resting is required much later. Some might really like this since you can save your dailies and still fight through countless encounters. The mini game to hide its ADEU like structure is very annoying though.

 

[Minigiant]

Every class has attrition in the form of HP though, so they all have incentive to rest sooner or later.

Attrition of HP doesn't happen until you have a lot of them.

It's usually is the real reason why the party stops in 5 minutes. 15 HP fighter takes 10 damage. "Okay lads. Back to Greentown."

This is precisely why 4e increased base HP, introduce Healing Surges, had low minute short rests, and shifted Attrition from Offense Drain to Defense Drain. Because as long as each person had 2-3 Healing Surges, you could always move forward regardless of how many fireballs, rages, and power strikes you had

 

[jmartkdr2]

PF2 made out of combat healing trivial. It works much like past D&D at the earliest levels, but a few feats in and you can pretty much restore all health as long as you can short rest (which is only limited by the environment and/or GM.) Its basically encounter powers with no short rest limit so it turns out resting is required much later. Some might really like this since you can save your dailies and still fight through countless encounters. The mini game to hide its ADEU like structure is very annoying though.

In theory this is true, but I've found that in practice a genuinely beat-up character can take hours to heal up with Treat Wounds. Which is pretty easy for gms to limit.

 

[Cruentus]

Attrition of HP doesn't happen until you have a lot of them.

It's usually is the real reason why the party stops in 5 minutes. 15 HP fighter takes 10 damage. "Okay lads. Back to Greentown."

This is precisely why 4e increased base HP, introduce Healing Surges, had low minute short rests, and shifted Attrition from Offense Drain to Defense Drain. Because as long as each person had 2-3 Healing Surges, you could always move forward regardless of how many fireballs, rages, and power strikes you had

Isn't that what clerics were for? Get into that fight at first level, take a hit or two, get a cure light from the cleric. Job's a good'un. Our group is playing in a DnD Basic game right now, and we have yet to use a 5 minute work day, even though the Elf only has one spell, and we have no cleric (well, an NPC who we kicked from the party because he was making every single undead encounter meaningless).

Earlier games (pre 3.0?) had most of the class abilities, except spells, at will, or passive, or some ribbon bonuses for particular situations (Ranger preferred enemy). Everything else - fighting, thief abilities, ranger abilities, turn undead, etc. - were all "as often as you wanted".

Now, though, there is more "power" and more utility in the plethora of abilities/spell like abilities, and powers given by class, subclass, multiclass, feat, background, whatever, that many of them can't work in the current paradigm as "at will" type stuff. So they get tied to a recharge or rest mechanic, and players have been trained or decided that they need to have everything at their disposal of there is no chance of winning or no reason to press on. As mentioned, a lot of it is party dynamics, DM skill, and varies from table to table. But I have found the need for "rests" is waaay more now in 5e than in the Basic and 2e games I'm playing in currently. So, all IME/IMO/YMMV.

 

[payn]

In theory this is true, but I've found that in practice a genuinely beat-up character can take hours to heal up with Treat Wounds. Which is pretty easy for gms to limit.

Yeap, which is why its so wonky. PF2 is not designed to press your luck when you are down on resources, its designed to TPK such a troop.

 

[Minigiant]

Isn't that what clerics were for? Get into that fight at first level, take a hit or two, get a cure light from the cleric. Job's a good'un. Our group is playing in a DnD Basic game right now, and we have yet to use a 5 minute work day, even though the Elf only has one spell, and we have no cleric (well, an NPC who we kicked from the party because he was making every single undead encounter meaningless).

Earlier games (pre 3.0?) had most of the class abilities, except spells, at will, or passive, or some ribbon bonuses for particular situations (Ranger preferred enemy). Everything else - fighting, thief abilities, ranger abilities, turn undead, etc. - were all "as often as you wanted".

Now, though, there is more "power" and more utility in the plethora of abilities/spell like abilities, and powers given by class, subclass, multiclass, feat, background, whatever, that many of them can't work in the current paradigm as "at will" type stuff. So they get tied to a recharge or rest mechanic, and players have been trained or decided that they need to have everything at their disposal of there is no chance of winning or no reason to press on. As mentioned, a lot of it is party dynamics, DM skill, and varies from table to table. But I have found the need for "rests" is waaay more now in 5e than in the Basic and 2e games I'm playing in currently. So, all IME/IMO/YMMV.

Yeah. And that was the point.

Everyone had HD and shared heals. So you quit when the HP and CLW ran out. Not when Fireballs and Divine Smites ran out.

If the DM wanted you to delve further, they gave you potions.

 

[Shardstone]

I made long rests 24 hours and doable only in safe havens. Short rests stayed the same. Did not impose a limit on amount of short rests. Ran five separate groups like this. Overall, it cured all problems of resource attrition. Finding the haven was a big reward, and having it made for great tactical and narrative game play. They weren't weren't only ones who wanted a places particular haven!

 

[DND_Reborn]

I made long rests 24 hours

This is our current long rest as well, but we made short rests 3 hours. So far it has worked well, but we didn't have the 5MWD issue anyway.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Aren't those feats a lot like cantrips? Spells that become at-will similar to cantrips becoming more effective as you level up? Because the problem with some people (aka people that don't have eldritch blast) is that they feel like they aren't contributing if they're using cantrips.

To a certain extent, yes, they’re like cantrips. OTOH, they’re at-will or always-on as long as you have the right kind of spell or slot reserved, so they never run out. Better yet, they have ZERO components- a gagged & bound wizard with an offensive Reserve feat could still contribute to combat. He could be deprived of his spellbook and still go pew*pew*pew.

As to their low power, there’s no reason the Reserve mechanic couldn’t have been used for more powerful effects. For example, being able to have a Blink-like effect at will if you keep a 7th level Teleportation spell reserved. Or some kind of minor at-will healing magic as long as you reserved an 8th level healing spell.