D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

[GMforPowergamers]

He can do both on the same turn,

nope
Multiattack. Vecna uses Flight of the Damned (if available), Rotten Fate, or Spellcasting. He then makes two attacks with Afterthought.

and it isn't confusing. Vecna starts his fight in a 80 foot corridor

so he only works in 1 adventure?

with deadly walls and a lair action that puts obstacles in the way. He casts lightning bolt and Rotten Faith at the start of the fight, doing 8d6 lightning damage + the Rotten Faith's 96 damage and fear effect.

he has to choose 1 and why EVER choose lightningbolt?

They also say in the adventure that you can increase the challenge of Vecna through a list of methods.

but they don;t put that in his stats why? If I plan to put vecna in my next campaign and I pull up his stats it doesn't list any of this.

Having him cast lightning bolt as a 9th level spell by default or something is thus totally valid.

again not in his stat block... why not write that out... remember this was supposed to be "MORE CLEAR" not more hidden traps.

It isn't confusing, its a fun tactic to naughty word with people.

no it isn't you choose 1 and if you choose lightning bolt you are underperforming for the CR... remember the thing the new stat block was supposed to avoid.

Have some imagination, I know you've been in this game longer then I have.

I have plenty... I even said "With work I could make this a threat" in the other thread... but I don't see why we hide and make that work necessary, especially when the new way was supposed to be better.
heck I have to look up the damage of the spells anyway (so it didn't remove needing to look up spell)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I didn't read the whole discussion.
So maybe I duplicate others opinions.

I don't completely like the new spellcasting block. I think it needs another overhaul. I think recharge mechanisms should be used a bit more.

Contra new format:

• I agree that a lich should be able to prepare any spell that a mage can prepare.
• having abilities that are non spells that exactly duplicate spells but can't be countered or resisted leaves a bad taste.

Pro new format:

• A big problem with enemy spellcasters always was that you never met them after they have cast some spells, so they were always way more challenging as an equal leveled PC during a typical encounter.
• PCs also have spell like abilities or modifiers to spells that make them uncounterable or unresistable. So it is not totally out of order that NPCs have access to such abilities.

I wish that PC and NPC spellcasters have some kind of recharge mechanism that disallows using the same spell over and over again, even if it is as simple as lair actions are right now.
PCs might be allowed to prepare the same spell twice to be able to use them twice in a row or so.

In one of the first DnDnext playtests, there actually was a rule that a spellcaster had to alternate between cantrips and leveled spells. I think that this is a bit too predictable, but I really think the game would benefit from such a rule.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Somewhat related: why are there wizards who can't cast prestidigitation or thaumaturgy?

Why is 'wizard stuff' not just a thing wizards can do without sacrificing a cantrip slot? Why can't the caster classes just do their 'nod to what everyone expects these guys to do in pop culture' cantrips like druidcraft?

yea prestidigitation, thaunaturgy, and druid craft should be class features of wizard, cleric, and druid not cantrips...

then again I think detect magic should be a cantrip

 

[Stoutstien]

yea prestidigitation, thaunaturgy, and druid craft should be class features of wizard, cleric, and druid not cantrips...

then again I think detect magic should be a cantrip

Aye. Same with EB and probably a few others like guidance. IMO spells and spell casting is a bloated and dated pillar that needs to go on a diet.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Aye. Same with EB and probably a few others like guidance. IMO spells and spell casting is a bloated and dated pillar that needs to go on a diet.

this is what I want... build most/all classes like warlock, but build things like this into class features.

imagine a druid that could take a druid min feat (like an invocation) called good berry... every day after a long rest you create X number of berries that do Y...

 

[Shardstone]

nope
Multiattack. Vecna uses Flight of the Damned (if available), Rotten Fate, or Spellcasting. He then makes two attacks with Afterthought.

so he only works in 1 adventure?

he has to choose 1 and why EVER choose lightningbolt?

but they don;t put that in his stats why? If I plan to put vecna in my next campaign and I pull up his stats it doesn't list any of this.

again not in his stat block... why not write that out... remember this was supposed to be "MORE CLEAR" not more hidden traps.

no it isn't you choose 1 and if you choose lightning bolt you are underperforming for the CR... remember the thing the new stat block was supposed to avoid.

I have plenty... I even said "With work I could make this a threat" in the other thread... but I don't see why we hide and make that work necessary, especially when the new way was supposed to be better.
heck I have to look up the damage of the spells anyway (so it didn't remove needing to look up spell)

Sorry man, and don't take this the wrong way because I really enjoy reading your posts and your opinions (not being sarcastic), but this post is really a symptom of white room theory crafting.

You are someone who isn't new to the game. I think you've played more then 1 edition, might even played before I was born. I think this gives you a lot of biases that makes it hard for you to understand the new player perspective.

Not a single thing you wrote is a problem with the stat block. Not a single thing in this post makes Vecna confusing, or underperform, unless you're in a white room situation. The thing is, even though I know WotC half-asses everything and don't like it, the name of 5th Edition is all about making things your own. They give you a streamlined template and literally tell you that you have a magic item that can change anything on the template that you want with literally any magical effect that you could imagine.

The streamlined template means even as a noob DM I could pick up Vecna and run him and have a fun challenge. Then they give experienced DMs a way to make the encounter more complex by giving you the Book of Vile Darkness and a literal blank check to do whatever you want.

Noobs have a lot of issues running the old spellcasters. This new one is easier. I'm new to the game, not even a decade playing, and this spell block is easier to grok, understand, and use.

For the love of god, I wish the people on Enworld would stop acting like the new player experience is something they understand. Sometimes, you guys are so in your own heads with all the past D&D you've played, that you really just lose the ability to comprehend what the game is like for those of us who haven't played since 6000 BC.

 

[Greg Benage]

For the love of god, I wish the people on Enworld would stop acting like the new player experience is something they understand. Sometimes, you guys are so in your own heads with all the past D&D you've played, that you really just lose the ability to comprehend what the game is like for those of us who haven't played since 6000 BC.

I've been playing for 42 years and routinely screw up with high-level spellcasters. And I'd like to claim it's because of the multidimensional spellcasting tactics I'm running, but it's usually as simple as casting another concentration spell when I've already got one up.

Player: "So, uh, the greater invisibility goes down when he casts the wall of force, right?"

Me: blink*blink

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sorry man, and don't take this the wrong way because I really enjoy reading your posts and your opinions (not being sarcastic), but this post is really a symptom of white room theory crafting.

white room is reading "Choose one" not "Can do both?"

You are someone who isn't new to the game.

not by a LONG shot

I think you've played more then 1 edition,

2e, 2e with add ons, 3e, 3.5, 4e, pf, M&M, SW saga, multi third party things... so yeah

might even played before I was born.

oh god why make me think of this (I started in 95)

I think this gives you a lot of biases that makes it hard for you to understand the new player perspective.

funny becuse my main problem is this ISn't hellping new DMs eaither...

Not a single thing you wrote is a problem with the stat block. Not a single thing in this post makes Vecna confusing, or underperform, unless you're in a white room situation.

chooseing to lightning bolt over Rotten Fate... infact any spell listed I think (maybe dominate is good)

The streamlined template means even as a noob DM I could pick up Vecna and run him and have a fun challenge.

and fixing it so all the options are better and more or less equal messes with this how? heck my suggestion is move fluff into it's own section not in combat actions... make the lightning bolt higher level if you want to keep it.

Then they give experienced DMs a way to make the encounter more complex by giving you the Book of Vile Darkness and a literal blank check to do whatever you want.

aka just do it yourself...

in my years I made plenty of stat blocks for a half dozen editions... but when I get an NPC/Monster I would prefer it to work out the box with minimal change...

I CAN change anything... I can start with the zombie stat block and change it enough to make it Vecna for my game.

Noobs have a lot of issues running the old spellcasters.

and if you want to fix that I am 100% for it... remove fluf cantrips and less powerful spell options.

This new one is easier.

and full of traps that I see with my experence that newer DMs wont

I'm new to the game, not even a decade playing, and this spell block is easier to grok, understand, and use.

but what would make it harder if the options were more balanced?!?!

you do understand my problem is this is half done fix right?

For the love of god, I wish the people on Enworld would stop acting like the new player experience is something they understand. Sometimes, you guys are so in your own heads with all the past D&D you've played, that you really just lose the ability to comprehend what the game is like for those of us who haven't played since 6000 BC.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I've been playing for 42 years and routinely screw up with high-level spellcasters. And I'd like to claim it's because of the multidimensional spellcasting tactics I'm running, but it's usually as simple as casting another concentration spell when I've already got one up.

Player: "So, uh, the greater invisibility goes down when he casts the wall of force, right?"

Me: blink*blink

me too... I LOVE the idea of making NPC/Monster spell casters easier... just without traps like "Wait do I animate dead, or throw lightning or dominate a PC or use rotting ability?

 

[Shardstone]

I've been playing for 42 years and routinely screw up with high-level spellcasters. And I'd like to claim it's because of the multidimensional spellcasting tactics I'm running, but it's usually as simple as casting another concentration spell when I've already got one up.

Player: "So, uh, the greater invisibility goes down when he casts the wall of force, right?"

Me: blink*blink

Luckily one of Vecna's lair actions lets him ignore concentration for a round!