D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

[Synthil]

Meanwhile, the MotM Evoker is a hot mess. It deals 4d10 + 3 damage, implying 17th level-type cantrip damage, which it can do three times in a turn for way more damage than a PC could deal with similar attacks. And yet the spell save DC 15 implies a caster-equivalent level of 9-12 due to the +4 proficiency bonus.

It has no equivalent level because it is not a PC. It doesn't have to have a proficiency bonus. They can have better saves than attacks or vice-versa. A warlock can have 4 5th level spell slots but no 1-4th level slots. Other creatures might have completely different distributions of slots and powers as well.

And again, as someone had mentioned, this seems to only bother people with magic. No one bats an eye at the NPC knight for having abilities PCs don't have.
What makes magical abilities so different?

 

[DND_Reborn]

My question was

Even on Player Characters, much lower level spells are weaker than cantrips.

Because without 1st level Magic Missile (where the spell is), you can't upcast it using a higher level slot.

Again, no attack, no save, guaranteed damage. There is something to be said for that, otherwise why would SO MANY PCs take it???

The fact that (due to scaling) cantrips are better than many 1st and 2nd level is a whole separate issue IMO.

And again, as someone had mentioned, this seems to only bother people with magic. No one bats an eye at the NPC knight for having abilities PCs don't have.
What makes magical abilities so different?

Having different abilities is fine. The new Vecna has a lot of features PCs can't have, which is fine.

What isn't fine IMO is when you have a system PCs use, such as a spellcasting, and monsters do it differently.

A Knight has features, but isn't a "Fighter", it is something different. Vecna's statblock actually says "(wizard)".

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As for the arguments about creatures only needing 3-8 rounds of features, it is pretty bad. A spell list gives me tons of options of what I might have a creature, like Vecna, do. Having a half-dozen set features and very little otherwise makes them too predictable IMO.

Anyway, if you really look at the new Vecna, most of the stuff they even give him would rarely be used. So, for the people who argue for not having useless info, why bother having these things either? Seems pointless.

 

[beancounter]

While it's not my preference, I can understand streamlining spells into spell-like abilities for most monster...

BUT Vecna is an arch mage, a wizard, a MAGIC user. It makes absolutely no sense for him not to have spells.

Another thought- This change was made to make it easier to new DMs to run monsters.
How many NEW DM's are running 20th level/Tier 4 campaigns?...

 

[Hussar]

There is something to be said for that, otherwise why would SO MANY PCs take it???

In 10 years (ish) of 5e, I can't say I've ever seen a single PC actually take Magic Missile. We've had a few wands of magic missile floating around, which have seen use, but, actually burning a spell slot for it? Nope.

Again, it would be unbelievably helpful if folks would simply talk about themselves instead of trying to pretend that their preferences are so universal that every should automatically just nod in agreement.

Having different abilities is fine. The new Vecna has a lot of features PCs can't have, which is fine.
What isn't fine IMO is when you have a system PCs use, such as a spellcasting, and monsters do it differently.
A Knight has features, but isn't a "Fighter", it is something different. Vecna's statblock actually says "(wizard)"

Wow. Really? That's the defense? So, what, exactly, is a knight? Ranger? Nope, no spells. Can't be a Paladin either. Oh, oh, I know, he's a ferret. Yup, a really, really tall ferret. In armor.

And people wonder why I scoff at the whole simulationist argument. If simulationist play was actually a thing, then the idea that a knight isn't a fighter would blow people's minds. But, of course, it doesn't. It's all about simulation when it's convenient. It's something "lots of people do" when it's convenient to plant a flag.

Again, since no one answered me the first time around, how is it good game design to have a system that is so complex than no one can use it without making mistakes? When even seasoned, veteran DM's cannot use these creatures without making mistakes, how is this possibly a good design? And, it's not like making mistakes with casters is some isolated thing that comes up once in a blue moon. It happens all the time. Because using a caster, particuarly anything in double digit levels, is insanely complicated, and far, far too much for a DM to handle in the middle of an encounter. So, the game grinds to a halt as yet again one of the players corrects the DM, leading to the DM getting more and more frustrated, and generally resulting in terrible encounters.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And again, as someone had mentioned, this seems to only bother people with magic. No one bats an eye at the NPC knight for having abilities PCs don't have.

Such things actually low-key bug me.

Recently in my game I had a situation relating to a group of thieves, and I needed statblocs for various scoundrels. None that I found had sneak attack, the higher level ones just had silly number of attacks. So reduced the number of their innate attacks and gave them sneak attack. This is what the players expected from a bunch of rogues, so they (well some of them) played smartly and tried to avoid situation where the NPCs could sneak attack them. This resulted more interesting combat where positioning mattered and it made the enemies feel 'roguey'.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

BUT Vecna is an arch mage, a wizard, a MAGIC user. It makes absolutely no sense for him not to have spells.

Again. He has spells. More than you'd probably ever use in a single battle with him. He has a handful of magical non-spell abilities, but he still has spells. They even give advice on how to give him even more spells (using the Book of Vile Darkness that's in his ribcage, and probably is his Phylactery by my speculation).

 

[Stoutstien]

While it's not my preference, I can understand streamlining spells into spell-like abilities for most monster...

BUT Vecna is an arch mage, a wizard, a MAGIC user. It makes absolutely no sense for him not to have spells.

Another thought- This change was made to make it easier to new DMs to run monsters.
How many NEW DM's are running 20th level/Tier 4 campaigns?...

He does have spells just not listed individually in the block. He has basically every evil/dark/necromancy/secret for his eyes only spell you can think of. Should they have actually made that clearer? Definitely. The stat block isn't anything more than a single snapshot option for the DM. He could just as well switch out anything for anything. He is beyond spell slots as a limit for his magic.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

funny becuse my main problem is this ISn't hellping new DMs eaither...

Umm . . . got any evidence for that? At all? Because I'm probably half your age and have been in the hobby for just about 6 years now. I'm a "new DM" compared to most of you.

I like this form of listing spells. Giving a list of 20+ spell slots of 9 different levels that I'd have to keep track of for Vecna in battle would not be fun and certainly would be unhelpful in making sure the fight goes smoothly.

To me, at least, this is helpful. Now I just have to keep track of individual spells and reference how many times he's cast it in the fight so far. Really easy, really helpful.

 

[beancounter]

Again. He has spells. More than you'd probably ever use in a single battle with him. He has a handful of magical non-spell abilities, but he still has spells. They even give advice on how to give him even more spells (using the Book of Vile Darkness that's in his ribcage, and probably is his Phylactery by my speculation).

He should have all the spells and spell slots of an 20+ level arch mage.

 

[Thomas Rainsborough]

This is a metagame shift though. Counterspell wasn’t nerfed, it’s just worse in the post-MMotM metagame because fewer monsters need to use spells to be effective in combat now.

I am not talking about Counerspell. I nerfed Counterspell (and Dispel Magic) with House Rules years ago. I am talking about players chars having innate features that are badly hit by the overall changes to spell casting stat blocks.

How would you like to be an Oath of the Ancients Paladin that just hit 7th level in your campaign? That is just one example.