WotC WotC blacklist. Discussion

[darjr]

Having worked QA for many years, we would take the dev managers' estimates and multiply by 4. Worked disturbingly well.

And you kept them secret?

I think estimates have a way of becoming self fulfilled prophecy.

 

[Oofta]

And you kept them secret?

I think estimates have a way of becoming self fulfilled prophecy.

You can get software that's has lot's of functions, you can get software quickly, you can get software that works. Pick two.

 

[darjr]

You can get software that's has lot's of functions, you can get software quickly, you can get software that works. Pick two.

Yup.

And by self fulfilled prophecy I mean it’s guaranteed too take longer than the estimate.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

You can get software that's has lot's of functions, you can get software quickly, you can get software that works. Pick two.

I always head that as "Cheap, quickly, good pick two"

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Yup.

And by self fulfilled prophecy I mean it’s guaranteed too take longer than the estimate.

Not in my experience, devs will usually give a pretty good time estimate if it is an variation of something they have done before, more so if it is a business they already understand the user needs. However, very often they are asked to do something for a business they know nothing about. There is usually a whole bunch of stuff that are special cases and workarounds embedded in business practise that are never documented and assumptions that everyone in the business assumes that everyone knows. The poor dev doesn't and that is where the fun starts.

 

[Oofta]

I always head that as "Cheap, quickly, good pick two"

There's also the three Qs: quick, quality, quantity.

 

[Hussar]

I’d quibble a bit with the idea that 4e was designed around vtt play. It was designed around public play. You’d be able to RPGA style play as the baseline.

Of course that overlaps with vtt play quite a lot.

The problem was, most people had established groups and were quite understandably baffled by design decisions that make perfect sense in other contexts.

 

[Oofta]

I’d quibble a bit with the idea that 4e was designed around vtt play. It was designed around public play. You’d be able to RPGA style play as the baseline.

Of course that overlaps with vtt play quite a lot.

The problem was, most people had established groups and were quite understandably baffled by design decisions that make perfect sense in other contexts.

I do remember them stating that they explicitly borrowed ideas from MMOs. The impression I got at the time was that they basically wanted an MMO that you could play at the dinner table or online. At the time, everyone wanted to be the next world of warcrack. Maybe it was a mistaken impression. Whether that that a worthy goal if true is a matter of opinion and preference.

 

[Hussar]

I think that might be overstating the case a bit.

But I’ve always seen 4e as the RPGA edition. Most of the play testing went through the RPGA and so many of the design decisions were based on the experiences of the RPGA. I think that’s likely where the confusion with mmo games comes from. They weren’t designing a tabletop mmo. But because RPGA and public play does overlap with mmo design a lot of the 4e is an MMO thing comes from both approaches having similar issues.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I think that might be overstating the case a bit.

But I’ve always seen 4e as the RPGA edition. Most of the play testing went through the RPGA and so many of the design decisions were based on the experiences of the RPGA. I think that’s likely where the confusion with mmo games comes from. They weren’t designing a tabletop mmo. But because RPGA and public play does overlap with mmo design a lot of the 4e is an MMO thing comes from both approaches having similar issues.

Very much agree with this. It was designed to be bomb proof at the DM end and deliver a consistent experience.