D&D 5E Toll the Chest

[Paul Farquhar]

So baring something extraordinary, there will be a surprise round.

The first part of the quote tells us surprise is DM's call. I tend not to like surprise rounds, and would only call one if absolutely necessary. And with mimics and the like a regular round in which the players may not know what is and is not a target works fine. But the DM simply saying "you are surprised" is also a perfectly accurate interpretation of the rules.

 

[Maxperson]

Maxperson quotes rules to support a ruling then calls it a "surprise round."

I'm tired!!!

The point is that the Mimic will have surprised any PC that didn't notice it as a threat. That is also part of the surprise rules and the Mimic's ability makes it undetectable as a threat by normal stealth/perception means.

 

[Hriston]

These days, the troll is probably lawful good and in need of rescuing. But even in ye olden days there was always the potential that the troll was a scantily clad princess covered by an illusion.

A troll is certainly a potential threat, as is a chest, and anything else the PCs might see. And it's up to them if they want to attack it, talk to it, ignore it or otherwise interact with it.

However, that does not apply to something that is stealthy. The players can't see it unless they make a perception check, so they can't choose to interact with it. This would be counterproductive for a mimic, which is like an anger fish and depends on its prey seeing the lure.

The anglerfish, like the mimic, is an ambush predator that waits patiently for its prey to get near before launching a sudden overwhelming attack. To its prey, it's a clear threat, so for this strategy to work, the anglerfish often remains motionless in order to remain unnoticed and to keep its prey's attention focused on the lure. In order to conceptualize this strategy, it's useful to draw a distinction between the lure and the anglerfish proper.

It's the same with the mimic. The mimic has a false appearance that it uses to lure adventurers close enough to launch an attack, but it also has a true form that must remain hidden for its plan to work. If the adventurers saw the mimic in its true form, they would know they had encountered a threat, but as long as the mimic stays very still in its object form, they have no direct evidence they have encountered a creature at all.

 

[Hriston]

Yet...


Here it seems to be. You don't know that a troll is a threat. Nothing in the setting or the rules prevents a non-hostile troll. And of course this applies to any creature. It could be an orc, it could be a human. You don't know they're a threat jus by seeing them. But you might suspect it.

No, a troll, orc, or human doesn't need to be hostile to be a threat. It's capable of doing harm. That's what makes such creatures a threat. It has nothing to do with what you know or suspect about their intentions or attitude. All that matters is if the creature has been detected before it attacks you.

The disagreement here is about whether seeing a mimic's false appearance that's indistinguishable from a normal chest counts as noticing the mimic. I say it does not.

 

[Hussar]

No, a troll, orc, or human doesn't need to be hostile to be a threat. It's capable of doing harm. That's what makes such creatures a threat. It has nothing to do with what you know or suspect about their intentions or attitude. All that matters is if the creature has been detected before it attacks you.

So, I'm looking straight at the mimic - so, I can see it right?

Now, I'm not 100% sure that it is, in fact, a mimic, but, I'm strongly suspicious that it might be. At the very least, I'm very suspicious of a trap of some sort. It's a pretty obvious one. Now, standing off several feet, I lob a damaging spell at the mimic (I think most people here have allowed the spell to work) and damage it.

But, because it hadn't moved, I'm surprised? Seriously? Kinda the same thing about monsters around a corner. Sure, if I'm just walking in an area where I am not being careful at all, then a monster around the corner is probably going to surprise me. But, I'm in a highly dangerous area, being careful, looking all around, and I come to a corner and carefully look around the corner, ready for danger and BAM! I'm surprised by the three orcs around the corner?

Seriously? This is how you would rule this?

 

[Maxperson]

The anglerfish, like the mimic, is an ambush predator that waits patiently for its prey to get near before launching a sudden overwhelming attack. To its prey, it's a clear threat, so for this strategy to work, the anglerfish often remains motionless in order to remain unnoticed and to keep its prey's attention focused on the lure. In order to conceptualize this strategy, it's useful to draw a distinction between the lure and the anglerfish proper.

Unlike the Mimic, the Angler fish hides in the darkness. The lure is the only thing that the fish can see, because the Angler actually does use stealth to hide from view. The Mimic, however, relies on disguise, not stealth. Disguise which, if it weren't for the Mimic's perfect ability to disguise itself, would be a Deception check.

It's the same with the mimic. The mimic has a false appearance that it uses to lure adventurers close enough to launch an attack, but it also has a true form that must remain hidden for its plan to work. If the adventurers saw the mimic in its true form, they would know they had encountered a threat, but as long as the mimic stays very still in its object form, they have no direct evidence they have encountered a creature at all.

This is another False Equivalence. A fish that hides in the darkness, uses a visible luminescent lure to attract fish and then ambushes them from hiding, is not at all the same as a 100% visible creature that disguises itself.

 

[Hriston]

Yeah. I'd also love to see @Hriston argue to his DM that his PC using Alter Self should be using stealth during his attempt to fool an NPC into thinking he's someone else.

If his attempt depends only on holding perfectly still, I don't see why not.

 

[Hriston]

You seem confused by the differences between Deception and Hiding.

A mimic can't even speak. It certainly can't tell lies, so no, I don't think Deception is appropriate in the slightest to resolve anything the mimic is trying to do.

 

[Hriston]

If the mimic was concealed it wouldn't work, since no one can touch a chest they cannot see.

I've noticed a pattern where you back up your arguments with obvious counterfactuals. Is this deliberate?

 

[Maxperson]

If his attempt depends only on holding perfectly still, I don't see why not.

No different than the attempt depending on appearance, which it does, or depending on a certain voice, or... It's all deception man. Hiding is explicitly staying out of sight in 5e. I mean, you're free to house rule it to be holding still, but that won't ever be RAW.