D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[jgsugden]

~looks warly back at the last 3 decades of comics~

~looks at the DC movie-verse~

Um...

~Looks at how 300K is a est seller in comics today when they used to sell 10 million~

Nah, you're right.

The medium is dying, yes. However, within the medium, the quality of story was a key driver of success in most eras.

As was skimpy sexist artwork for female characters, but that is off point.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It needs to be narrative power, more than personal power. Unfortunately, spellcasters get both, and other classes don't get much of any.

A Fabricate spell can crank out weapons to arm an entire village, a Druid can triple crop yields, and a Fighter can...uh...flex his muscles good?

EDIT: this isn't a slam against Fighters, just a comment about how they only have abilities like this if the DM says they do, like the ability to make a skill check to train commoners to fight or lead an army, or come up with strategies. Whereas a spell slot can turn an old keep into a nigh impregnable fortress (Guards and Wards).

Again, Level Up is the answer. Plenty of class features just like this.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Again, Level Up is the answer. Plenty of class features just like this.

Though I hope it is not too difficult to understand the disappointment about the fact that, yet again, D&D requires a third-party product in order to address fundamental gaps between key archetypes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Though I hope it is not too difficult to understand the disappointment about the fact that, yet again, D&D requires a third-party product in order to address fundamental gaps between key archetypes.

No, not too difficult to understand. I wouldn't be so irritated with WotC (as seen in my post history) if it was easy to get over. But I'm very happy there are options out there that suit my needs.

 

[AnotherGuy]

My players are currently 13th level and loving it and cannot wait to progress upwards.

(i) The halfling wild magic sorcerer is 13th but effectively uses the class features and spell casting table of a 14th level sorcerer after making a pact with a bone devil's master. It allowed the DM (me) to add additional flavour to his wild magic table. It is a little darker to signify the affect of tapping into the power of a Lord of the Nine Hells. The dark pact was made when the party lost a fellow member who was kidnapped by Halaster. Their failed attempt in rescuing her when they where defeated by Netherskull saw them being saved moments before their death via the Mad Mage's Time Stops only to have them cloned while unconscious before being released in the upper levels of Undermountain. Their only escape from being his lackies in the future would require them to destroy their cloned bodies nesting in the depths of Halaster's dungeon - thus needing to defeat Blackcloak himself. Hence the halfling's motivation for a deal with the devil literally.

(ii) The fighter is looking to reclaim a 2-part artefact that shape-changes into a weapon (he doesn't yet know it's the Rod of Seven Parts) that he lost from an unfortunate interaction with an Everlasting One. His delving into his parents history and disappearance had him uncover some lore on the multiverse and the City of Doors. He died against the greater mummy Diderius when the party was attempting to use the tomb's divination pool to establish the location of the blue dragon mask. However a young Immortal (long last companion of the party) petitioned for his soul in Kelemvor's City of Judgement when he would have otherwise been sent to the Wall of the Faithless since he didn't follow any FR deities. His reforging (resurrection) back into Faerun came at the cost of having his soul stripped from his native Mystara plane and instead bound to the Forgotten Realms universe.

(iii) The cleric of Kelemvor is hunting down a madman (an old PC) who seeks to return the Merciless At'ar back into the pantheon. The madman very much following the mantra "What is dead, may never die". Having uncovered ancient creation/life runes in hidden treasure caches of Ostoria, the madman now seeks to uncover the rumoured portals in At'ar's Looking Glass in the hopes of locating At'ar's corpse in the Astral plane and utilising said runes.

(iv) The artificer is seeking the knowledge of true science which he believes has been lost and plagued with the impurities of magic. In his quest he met with a power-stripped Elminster (long story) who requested from him a favour that he is now unable to deliver on himself: To safeguard his ward and discover the truth of her origin.
His ward being a creature from the monster menagerie from Arcana of the Ancients which serves to be a stepping stone in the direction of the lore the artificer is so desperate to uncover.

All this while Faerun is out of kilt with the
(a) Ordning being shattered (SKT), and the arrival of Hartkiller (Heartkiller's Horn DDAL05-17), which would create a giant power struggle amongst the giants should King Hekaton be found and returned to his throne. Would the giants stand behind the storm giant King or Annam's very own? And can this all be resolved before (b);

(b) impending arrival of Tiamat at the Well of Dragons as the Cult of the Dragon now firmly infiltrated by the Church of Tiamat, hence the reinterpretation on Maglas's writings (ToD); and let us not forget

(c) Szass Tam creating dracoliches with the use of soulstones given to him by traditionalists of the Cult of the Dragon from Xonthal's Keep in an effort to defeat Tiamat and her forces as well as conquer the Sword Coast (Mission to Thay: Nethwatch Keep); and this then in the backdrop of

(d) Vlaakith CLVII's assisting her ally Tiamat by secretly deploying a battalion of Githyanki warriors and knights at the Well of Dragons.

Spoiler: Allies of Tiamat from the FR wiki

Years after their exile in the Astral Plane, during the continuing war with the illithids, Gith's advisor, Vlaakith I, suggested that she search for allies in the Outer Planes, in particular from Tiamat. Gith agreed to visit the Nine Hells for an audience, but never returned. Instead, the red dragon envoy Ephelomon returned with a pledge from Tiamat that all red dragons would be allies to the githyanki and that a small contingent of red dragons would serve them as steeds. The envoy also decreed that Vlaakith I and her descendants would rule the githyanki in Gith's stead.[1][27][42] Vlaakith I also played a crucial role in securing the githyanki's position in the Astral Plane.[27] Ephelomon remained Vlaakith's consort ever since

And should the party be victorious in their assault of the Well of Dragons and defeat Tiamat, along with them having played The Lich Queen's Begotten - it would make sense to lead into The Lich Queen's Beloved since players (ii)-(iv) scope is already beyond the Faerun setting.

Now I could do all this and the myriad other storylines intersecting the above at lower levels, but why in Flint Fireforge's name would I want to?

 

[nevin]

D&D was not always a game with character levels going from 1st to 20th level. The original game only covered the first ten levels or so, and oldtimers from back in the day tell stories of characters retiring as rulers of their own domains rarely advancing much beyond that. In BECMI, characters other than humans can't go above 12th level, and in AD&D most characters other than humans and/or thieves cap out at 12th or 16th level.
I believe the codification that all characters go up to 20th level started with 3rd edition, because the game engine was called the d20 system and there's an opportunity to have another 20 show up.

But from everything I've heard in the two decades that I've been playing D&D, people playing above 15th level almost never seems to happen. Published modules and adventures also barely ever covered levels above that. Pathfinder Adventure Paths usually go from 1st to 15th level, and even the original Dragonlance series went only up to about 14th level, I've been told. In the days of 3rd edition, there was a lot of complaining from people digging deep into the math that things just start to break down completely once you go past those levels.

One problem seems to be that by 15th level, a group of 4 to 6 well prepared characters can take on a single one of the traditional top dog monsters. You can of course face off against groups of high power enemies after that, but that really stretches the narrative consistency of the game world. The best thing I've heard about high level play is "the same as always, but with bigger numbers".

Of course, the lure of 9th level spells has always been tempting. But given the overwhelming anecdotal evidence, is it really worth to still keep putting high level content in the regular Player's Handbook? If there really might be a market for material at higher levels, there's the option for a kind of Epic Level Handbook that covers level 15 to 25. (Remember the Epic Level Handbook? Yeah, I remember how people fawned over it when it came out, and then nobody ever using any of it.)
I think the PHB would actually become a better book if it goes only up to 15th level and doesn't bother 8th and 9th level spells. Not only does it become more compact and makes learning the game easier, it also creates more realistic expectations for players.

The high level stuff only messes up the game if you play low magic worlds where no one else can do that stuff. If you want nitty gritty leave it out. But don't take it away from those of us that like to use it. And wizards always had 9th level spells and clerics had up to 7th and they both still had nearly all the stuff people complain about, teleport, wish, miracle. D&D was never made for nitty gritty low magic play even at low levels in 1st ed. Look at what some of the magic items in the 1st ed DMG could do compared to spells.

the only complaint about high level based on reality is that it is a pain in the ass to plan for that many options. But IME if you actually run the campaign that high then you know your players abilities and likely reactions as well as they do. Plus a DM has to get really good at keeping secrets. It is so hard to do when you want to talk to your friends about all the stuff spinning in the background. But for high level games to work all the high level NPC's and organizations have to have thier secrets and actually keep them. Baddies that have been around will know at least some of what you know and plan accordingly. NPC's that are friendly will also make plans based on what they think the Pc"S will do.

think of it like this. level 7 game players get a ring of wishing. Djinn appears grants their wish consequences follow good or bad game continues.

Level 18 game, players get thier ring of wishing summon the Djinn make thier wish he goes free. Then the Royal Sultan of the holy winds declares Jihad on the players for insulting him and his firstborn by taking his wish instead of honorably freeing him from his forced servitude, and declares that any who help them in any way will be enemies as well. by the time they get back to thier city the King is dead one of the watch towers is in Ruins and everyone knows the players started the war. They can go kill the Sultan but it won't stop the war. They can defend the city but it won't stop the war. Ok players your move........ did the players know what would happen of course not but in a high level game some action pulls strings globally or universally. I like this kind of game. But you can't write a dungeon for it and you can't plan for everything you really have to be able to run half or more of it completly off the cuff because there are no rails with players at that level. If you do introduce rails they'll disintegrate them and move on.

I'll give you that the Epic handbook was a steaming pile...... Honestly I always thought for people that want high level there should be something like the Palladium hero's system. I think the biggest problem with 12+ is that it begins to transisition into a game where resources, Secrets, and alliances become more important. A lot of DM's don't like to do that stuff. For them level 10 is it start over. That kind of player and DM was what basic, then intermediate and then expert D&D rules were for.

 

[Reynard]

The key to successful high level D&D is to stop adventuring. Seriously. Stop going into holes looking for look. Carve out a nation. Create a world shaking artifact. Establish a major Guild. Build a temple to your God. Kill a god. BECOME a god. The problem with ultra high level 5E (and to a slightly lesser degree 3.x) is that the PCs are basically doing the same stuff they were at level 3, except in deeper holes or on different planes. The changing game was a feature that allowed for long term campaigning. Eliminating the changing game killed high level play.

Obviously, some people enjoy the scale of going on adventures at high levels and that's great, but the "slog" folks are complaining about is completely solved by stopping doing that thing, and start doing something else.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The key to successful high level D&D is to stop adventuring.

If people wanted to not-adventure they wouldn't have become adventurers.

 

[nevin]

The key to successful high level D&D is to stop adventuring. Seriously. Stop going into holes looking for look. Carve out a nation. Create a world shaking artifact. Establish a major Guild. Build a temple to your God. Kill a god. BECOME a god. The problem with ultra high level 5E (and to a slightly lesser degree 3.x) is that the PCs are basically doing the same stuff they were at level 3, except in deeper holes or on different planes. The changing game was a feature that allowed for long term campaigning. Eliminating the changing game killed high level play.

Obviously, some people enjoy the scale of going on adventures at high levels and that's great, but the "slog" folks are complaining about is completely solved by stopping doing that thing, and start doing something else.

lol or just tweak the rules and move on like people have been doing since 1971

 

[Reynard]

If people wanted to not-adventure they wouldn't have become adventurers.

You've never met anyone who changed careers, or went from working the job to owning the business?