D&D 5E Sorcerers and Primal Caster concepts

[Einlanzer0]

This came up in another thread and I thought I'd post it here to get some more general attention and peoples' thoughts. Many homebrew class discussions revolve around concepts that could be grouped as primal casters - i.e. witches, shamans, prophets, etc. I think this happens because there's a gap in the core classes that causes these archetypes to need to be shoehorned into classes that are defined by some pretty specific fluff - druids, warlocks, and wizards. This causes collisions, so it produces a lot of cognitive dissonance and therefore leads to lots of nerdy discussions.

IMO, there was a pretty big missed opportunity with the sorcerer class in 5e. It lost a lot of its identity with the move away from classic vancian casting, so instead of putting some serious thoughtwork into redefining it in a more unique way for 5e, they went ahead and just let it land again as a minor variant of wizard. In my head, the sorcerer should have taken on a more primal identity, allowing it to more easily absorb all kinds of archetypes that don't fit other casting classes that well because of the specific flavor trappings they all have. Thematically, this makes sense, because innate magic would have likely been the earliest and most primitive expression of magic, before it was deeply studied and poked at by more modern societies and leading to the proliferation of classes like wizards, clerics, druids, and warlocks. Mechanically, this makes sense because it would have allowed for the sorcerer to be more of an analogue to both the fighter (by its generalized and mechanically broad structure) and barbarian (through its primal-esque theming), rather than just a variant of a wizard.

So, I'm working on fleshing this idea of using subclasses to subtly alter the flavor of the sorcerer to push it in this direction. Specifically my aim is to create a few new sorcerous origins with the following ideas behind them, which are adapted from kibblestasty's occultist class. They all, by design, mix arcane and divine to a greater extent than the core sorcerer as well as most of its existing subclasses.

Fey Witchcraft - coven-based fey magics meant to allure, confuse, heal, curse, or generage chaos, depending on the type of coven
Sprit Channeling - shamanism-themed with a focus on trances, fetishes, and channeling spirits (note that this will be nothing like druid)
Chosen - Oracles that bring revelations and reveal mysteries. Similar to a divine soul but with more of an esoteric prophet flavor

All of these would explore new ways of using sorcery points - things like witchy transmutations, jaunts to the ethereal plane, or revelation of mystery & fatespinning. None of them are in a polished enough state yet for me to present with scrutiny, but I was curious what other people thought about this or what alternative ideas anyone has spent time thinking through.

 

[Yaarel]

For me, the Bard class is the go-to for a shaman concept. The Charisma, healing, shapeshifting, mind magic, divination, and teleportation and planar travel, are spot on.

The witch concept depends on which witch.
• Psychic witch − Psion (for now, a variant Warlock with curated spell list)
• Nature witch − Druid
• Fey witch − Warlock
• Devil witch − Warlock



Regarding the Sorcerer, I like less its fiddly mechanics, so I tend to steer clear of it.

 

[Einlanzer0]

For me, the Bard class is the go-to for a shaman concept. The Charisma, healing, shapeshifting, mind magic, divination, and teleportation and planar travel, are spot on.

The witch concept depends on which witch.
• Psychic witch − Psion (for now, a variant Warlock with curated spell list)
• Nature witch − Druid
• Fey witch − Warlock
• Devil witch − Warlock



Regarding the Sorcerer, I like less its fiddly mechanics, so I tend to steer clear of it.

I can't really get behind this because the concepts behind those classes are really specific and too pigeonholing for concepts like witches and shamans. The idea of someone that is called a shaman being a skill-monkey entertainer that studied in an organized college and casts spells that are performance-themed is just something I could never get on board with - it would be way, way too much reflavoring.

The difference, I think, is that there are two types of people in these discussions - those focused more on the thematic aspects of classes, and those focused more on the mechanical aspects of classes. I'm the former, so I'd rather start from a broad theme and build mechanics around it, rather than start from a defined set of mechanics and build a new theme around it.

 

[Yaarel]

I can't really get behind this because the concepts behind those classes are really specific and too pigeonholing for concepts like witches and shamans. The idea of someone that is called a shaman being a skill-monkey entertainer that studied in an organized college and casts spells that are performance-themed is just something I could never get on board with - it would be way, way too much reflavoring.

The difference, I think, is that there are two types of people in these discussions - those focused more on the thematic aspects of classes, and those focused more on the mechanical aspects of classes. I'm the former, so I'd rather start from a broad theme and build mechanics around it, rather than start from a defined set of mechanics and build a new theme around it.

The Bard is a mythologically accurate Celtic bard! It is a shaman, and its class features match the mythology about bards, including Taliesin and Merlin. It also happens to match the Norse shaman, the vǫlva.

Obviously, destroy the lute. Let the verbal spell component also replace any material component. Without the musical instrument, everything is shaman.

Bardic Inspiration is either verbal poetry (Celtic) or verbal commands (Norse).



Regarding the Druid class, it is an excellent alchemist. This nature magic lends itself to the kind of witch that brews herbal potions and communes with the elementals.

 

[Einlanzer0]

The Bard is a mythologically accurate Celtic bard! It is a shaman, and its class features match the mythology about bards, including Taliesin and Merlin. It also happens to match the Norse shaman, the vǫlva.

Obviously, destroy the lute. Let the verbal spell component also replace any material component. Without the musical instrument, everything is shaman.



Regarding the Druid class, it is an excellent alchemist. This nature magic lends itself to the kind of witch that brews herbal potions and communes with the elementals.

The Bard is a mythologically accurate Celtic bard! It is a shaman, and its class features match the mythology about bards, including Taliesin and Merlin. It also happens to match the Norse shaman, the vǫlva.

Obviously, destroy the lute. Let the verbal spell component also replace any material component. Without the musical instrument, everything is shaman.

Bardic Inspiration is either verbal poetry (Celtic) or verbal commands (Norse).



Regarding the Druid class, it is an excellent alchemist. This nature magic lends itself to the kind of witch that brews herbal potions and communes with the elementals.

It's not that I don't think your rationale makes sense; it's just not my preferred approach. For one, a celtic bard /= a tribal shaman or witchdoctor; the theme is not nearly as aligned as you're implying it is - there's some heavy refluffing you'd need to do to make a bard even come close to representing more culture-agnostic animism or shamanism concepts. Druids come closer to aligning with witches, but still not a good enough match for me - they are both too organized and too specifically nature-themed but without any notable fey or hag influence.

The core idea I'm going for here is that the sorcerer class represents the most primitive and raw expression of magic later adapted by more "civilized" spellcasters through study, manipulation, etc., which includes all other spellcasting classes - bards, clerics, druids, warlocks, and wizards. Its lack of highly specific flavor combined with the generic nature of is primary mechanical focus (metamagic/sorcery points) makes it a good facilitator for these kinds of concepts.

 

[cbwjm]

The sorcerer would have been great as the caster that gained access to the different spell lists depending on bloodline. Many of them may have ended up using the wizard spell list but the divine should could have used the cleric exclusively, aberrant mind and shadow could have used the warlock spell list, etc. I think that would have kept the sorcerer a little more interesting.

Fey Witchcraft - coven-based fey magics meant to allure, confuse, heal, curse, or generage chaos, depending on the type of coven
Sprit Conduit - shamanism-themed with a focus on trances, fetishes, and channeling spirits (note that this will be nothing like druid)
Blessed - Oracles that bring revelations and reveal mysteries. Similar to a divine soul but with more of a wandering prophet flavor

These are great ideas, I think sorcery points having options to fuel abilities that aren't covered by spells would help differentiate them a bit more and could be quite flavourful.

 

[Yaarel]

It's not that I don't think your rationale makes sense; it's just not my preferred approach. For one, a celtic bard /= a tribal shaman or witchdoctor; the theme is not nearly as aligned as you're implying it is - there's some heavy refluffing you'd need to do to make a bard even come close to representing more culture-agnostic animism or shamanism concepts. Druids come closer to aligning with witches, but still not a good enough match for me - they are both too organized and too specifically nature-themed but without any notable fey or hag influence.

The core idea I'm going for here is that the sorcerer class represents the most primitive and raw expression of magic later adapted by more "civilized" spellcasters through study, manipulation, etc., which includes all other spellcasting classes - bards, clerics, druids, warlocks, and wizards. Its lack of highly specific flavor combined with the generic nature of is primary mechanical focus (metamagic/sorcery points) makes it a good facilitator for these kinds of concepts.

For me, the spell list of the Sorcerer is too elementalist.

An animistic shamanic spell list is more about divination, healing, psychic journeys, taking on animal forms, and similar. In other words, the Bard spell list.

 

[Einlanzer0]

For me, the spell list of the Sorcerer is too elementalist.

An animistic shamanic spell list is more about divination, healing, psychic journeys, taking on animal forms, and similar. In other words, the Bard spell list.

Yes, but the spell list is just about the easiest thing to alter, both the base spell list and the expansion of spells through subclasses. That goes back to my post above

 

[Shardstone]

Both views are valid, but this thread should be more about the OP's idea, and less about a copmletely seperate and different but equally interesting perspective.

I like the primal sorcerer a lot. Oracle Sorcere is enchanting to me. Stealing, thanks!

 

[Ashrym]

Yes, but the spell list is just about the easiest thing to alter, both the base spell list and the expansion of spells through subclasses. That goes back to my post above

I agree with Yaarel.

The role of the shaman was a healer, prophet, and keeper of history and tradition. Bards were healers, prophets, and keepers of history and tradition. The reason to go with bard is the very similar function because bards are similar in their roots. Bard's association with "echoes of these primordial Words of Creation" sounds pretty primal.

Any 3 musical instruments can also be thematic. Rattles, stretch drums, etc. If you read Singing to the Plants by Stephan V. Beyer as an example you'll find discussion on performance in shamanism as well as the icaros, which are the shaman's songs. These songs are given to the shaman (per that example) by the spirits of the plants and animals for things such as healing, protection, attacking, etc.

So for example using the game terms and mechanic I would take bard as the class and would likely use a custom background but acolyte works. At 1st level bard that would give applicable knowledge, religion, and insight. For bard skills I would probably add history (because it was a main part of the historical role) and that leaves two more skills that a player might think are thematic. I favor the knowledge / mystical aspect so arcana and nature.

Cantrips would be minor illusion and prestidigitation. Spells might be animal friendship, speak with animals, identify, and cure wounds depending on the theme. I'm keeping it mostly nature. Depending on the level of supernatural or curse feel Tasha's hideous laughter, sleep, bane, dissonant whispers, or command are suitable to use or add at 2nd level and maintain the theme. The important thing is the spells that the players take match the theme that player is looking for as the character levels and bards are good for that.

Lore bard is generally a good choice for most concepts but spirits bard already has a built in connection to the spirit world that fits better. My expertise would be in history, arcana, religion or nature, and insight.