D&D 5E A Homebrew Cleric Cantrip discussion

[TwoSix]

What about this?

Blessed Weapon
transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (a sprinkle of holy water and a melee weapon)
Duration: 1 minute

The melee weapon you are holding becomes infused with holy energy. The weapon sheds a bright light in a 10 foot radius and dim light for another 10 feet, The damage this weapon deals gains the Radiant property, at 5th level this spell adds an additional 1d4 Radiant damage to attacks made with the weapon, 2d4 at 11th level and 3d4 at 17th. The weapon loses this enchantment if it leaves your grasp.

That's still a cantrip that's giving your weapon better hex by tier 3, and doesn't eat up concentration. Every multi-attacker in the game would use a feat or MC to get that spell.

If it's going to give scaling damage, it needs to be an action. If it's a bonus action with a 1 min duration, then I'd say something like light to 15'/30' and weapon acts as magic. The next hit with the weapon terminates the light (and magic), but leaves a glow on the target which gives advantage on the next attack against the target. Basically, a cantrip melee version of guiding bolt, which fits the thematics of a cleric cantrip, I feel.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

If you are a "melee" Cleric IME, you are likely going to have a better STR than WIS and your spells become utility / support.

Punishing the less effective option with an even worse attack cantrip doesn't seem to be a good design principle.

No, it is not the baseline. Unless all other cantrips are brought up to its level, it is clearly not the baseline, it is the superior exception.

That's sort of like claiming that Studded leather or breastplates arent the baseline for light/medium armor. That's what everyone wears after a level or too. Trap/"NPC" options shouldn't be an excuse to drag everything else down to their level.

YMMV, of course, but since most combats last 2-3 rounds, if you Toll twice the first is often the d8, which is done to lead you to the d12.

Who tolls an unwounded creature? Unless you're operating solo, you toll the thing your ally hit.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Please note my actual suggestion was just to grant advantage on the next attack, not include damage bumps at higher levels.

In essence, this is sort of combining True Strike with a weapon attack, but the advantage is for the next attack. Also, I didn't say this, but you should include "the next attack made against the target before the end of your next turn has advantage." But maybe the 1 round duration makes that unnecessary?

Oh, you were saying you wanted it like the GFB and BB cantrips, so I assumed the damage boost at 5th, 11th and 17th like those cantrips was included. I definetly don't think taking those out leads to a better solution.

No, it still isn't ideal, but at least now it requires your action each round and is considered Casting a Spell instead of taking the Attack action, so War Priest's can't use their bonus action in the same turn for another attack.

Why would that be a problem? War Priests aren't exactly breaking the game with their signature ability. And we have a lot of subclasses that now allow "Cantrip + attacks" already.

The problem is more GFB and BB don't have inherent boosts from features like Divine Strikes and their damage depends on certain riders. Blessed Weapon has no riders for the extra damage. Maybe if the next attack (which has advantage) hits, THEN that attack does extra damage?

You could do that, but I don't think I'd want to make it that the extra damage comes when someone else hits. Which gets into....

So, what do you want this cantrip to do? So far you have:

1. Shed light
2. Make your attack magical
3. Increase weapon damage
4. Provide advantage on an attack

All of which is a bit much for a cantrip IMO. Most cantrips only do 1 thing, sometimes 2, but 3 is rare IIRC.

I found the cantrip. It already shed light and made the weapon magical, I felt that wasn't enough and people seem to have agreed. It is also weird you call out your own suggestion as a problem because it adds too much.

But, what is the goal of the cantrip?

To give a melee cantrip for Clerics with Divine Strikes.

I find it notable that there are 9 out of the 14 clerics that are theoritically supposed to wade into melee (Death, Forge, Life, Nature, Order, Tempest, Trickery, Twilight, War) because they get Divine Strikes to improve their melee options. And of those 9 only 4 of them get martial weapons. Meaning that there are 5 subclasses of cleric, meant to be in melee, who fundamentally don't have good tools. A trickery cleric for example has Divine Strikes to give +1d8 at level 8, but their best melee option is their tertiary strength stat and a 1d6 weapon if they use a shield (which they should). This gives their melee option, which they are highlighted as having, a likely best case scenario of 1d6+1d8+3 or 11 damage (And that is assuming a 16 strength, a high wisdom, and a good con). Compare this, not even to Toll of the Dead, but Sacred Flame which is not highly regard, and if they switch to Blessed Strikes, then they could do 3d8 or 13.5. Instantly better, and ranged. And even if you extend this out to 14th level, you are likely not raising your strength, so you get 1d6+2d8+3 or 15.5 vs swapping and getting 5d8 or 22.5

If they were a light cleric? Sacred Flame can do 2d8+4 or 13 damage. Without having to swap, and will only improve if they have a higher wisdom. Best case at the end of the line is 4d8+5 for 23.

Now, take one of those 4 classes with martial weapons. Let's say you go with a War Cleric, who has multiple abilities to use weapons. You grab a Greatsword, forgo your shield, and at 8th level you can deal 2d6+1d8+3 or 14.5. They are only dealing 3.5 more damage than the sacred flame swap, only 1.5 more damage than the light cleric, and they have dropped their shield and are in melee. And at the highest tier? 2d6+2d8+3 or 19 damage. Less than using the cantrips.

And this is comparing with the d8's of sacred flame or a weak Toll of the dead. The strong Toll of the Dead, which is incredibly easy to get because clerics often do not go first in combat, does between 17.5 (2d12+1d8) for the swap or 17 (2d12+4) for the light cleric, or any other caster cleric. And if you go all the way to the end line? 31 damage (4d12+5)

But the majority of clerics are weapon users. The majority of them are encouraged by their base feature to go into melee and are told it will be effective. That is why when I saw this cantrip, I was immediately hooked with the idea that I wanted it in my games. I wanted a way to make the War Cleric or the Order cleric fulfill that goal of being viable in melee, instead of them being better off in simply swapping for Blessed strikes, getting the +1d8 to cantrips and all spells, and just ignoring any martial combat .


TL;DR I want a reason for Martial Clerics to attack in melee instead of taking Sacred Flame and Blessed Strikes.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Looking at some of the suggestions, none of them seem to be really interesting. You get a glowing weapon, it deals magical damage, or it adds/changes the damage to radiant (negating the need for the weapon to be magical in the first place).

I'd rather see something more interesting that isn't replicated by other spells. Also, thinking about the typical fantasy cleric, they are focused on fighting fiends and undead. I would want the main part of the spell to focus on fighting those creatures, similar to how shocking grasp has an added effect against armored opponents. Here's a draft of something I'm thinking. I haven't adjusted it for balance, as I'm more concerned about getting the core concepts of the cantrip down.

Blessed Blade
Evocation cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: S, M (a melee weapon worth at least 1 sp)
Duration: Instantaneous

You bless the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you. When you make this attack, you add 1d4 to your total attack roll as divine power guides your strike. On a hit, the weapon's damage cannot be reduced by any means.

If you hit a fiend or an undead creature with this spell, then until the start of you next turn that target cannot benefit from their normal damage resistances or immunities.

(Alternative option: If you hit a fiend or an undead creature with this spell, then until the start of you next turn that target has disadvantage on saving throws against spells, even if they would normally have advantage on such saves due to features such as Magic Resistance)

This spell’s bonus to your attack roll increases by +1 when you reach 5th level (1d4+1), 11th level (1d4+2), and 17th level (1d4+3).

***

In my opinion this is an interesting and unique cantrip. It's less focused on damage, and more focused on making the attack. The rider makes for an interesting mechanic that can really impact fights against the core enemies of holy clerics (per traditional fantasy tropes). Now whether the rider goes too far is up for debate. It might be better to limit it to just the next attack or spell before the end of the cleric's turn. But I feel like changing resisted / immune hits to normal hits isn't terribly broken. Additionally I realize that with bounded accuracy that +1d4 to attack is pretty huge and has diminishing returns as the character's gain level, but a blessed weapons seems more like a guaranteed hit rather than a truly damaging strike.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, it is not the baseline. Unless all other cantrips are brought up to its level, it is clearly not the baseline, it is the superior exception.

Clerics have three attack cantrips, total.

Sacred Flame d8s
Toll of the Dead d8/d12
Word of Radiance AOE d6's

Yes, it is the highest, but "all other cantrips" is literally the only two other choices they have. And when those are your choices, then you are going to pick Toll of the Dead

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Actually, the more I read over my spell suggestion, the more I really like it. I think this graduated from a fun hypothetical for me to something I may actually add into my games.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Looking at some of the suggestions, none of them seem to be really interesting. You get a glowing weapon, it deals magical damage, or it adds/changes the damage to radiant (negating the need for the weapon to be magical in the first place).

I'd rather see something more interesting that isn't replicated by other spells. Also, thinking about the typical fantasy cleric, they are focused on fighting fiends and undead. I would want the main part of the spell to focus on fighting those creatures, similar to how shocking grasp has an added effect against armored opponents. Here's a draft of something I'm thinking. I haven't adjusted it for balance, as I'm more concerned about getting the core concepts of the cantrip down.

Blessed Blade
Evocation cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: S, M (a melee weapon worth at least 1 sp)
Duration: Instantaneous

You bless the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you. When you make this attack, you add 1d4 to your total attack roll as divine power guides your strike. On a hit, the weapon's damage cannot be reduced by any means.

If you hit a fiend or an undead creature with this spell, then until the start of you next turn that target cannot benefit from their normal damage resistances or immunities.

(Alternative option: If you hit a fiend or an undead creature with this spell, then until the start of you next turn that target has disadvantage on saving throws against spells, even if they would normally have advantage on such saves due to features such as Magic Resistance)

This spell’s bonus to your attack roll increases by +1 when you reach 5th level (1d4+1), 11th level (1d4+2), and 17th level (1d4+3).

***

In my opinion this is an interesting and unique cantrip. It's less focused on damage, and more focused on making the attack. The rider makes for an interesting mechanic that can really impact fights against the core enemies of holy clerics (per traditional fantasy tropes). Now whether the rider goes too far is up for debate. It might be better to limit it to just the next attack or spell before the end of the cleric's turn. But I feel like changing resisted / immune hits to normal hits isn't terribly broken. Additionally I realize that with bounded accuracy that +1d4 to attack is pretty huge and has diminishing returns as the character's gain level, but a blessed weapons seems more like a guaranteed hit rather than a truly damaging strike.

This... has a few features I'm not sure of.

I'm torn on the accuracy. It's nice to not miss, but since this stacks with all other accuracy buffs, this becomes quite powerful I think, and doesn't address the damage issue, which I think is a real issue. But, maybe accuracy is a way to go.

"Can't be reduced by any means" feels like it is ripe for abuse. Maybe this is just my gut instinct, but I could see arguments about how immunity "reduces" damage to 0, so monsters can't be immune to this attack. They might also argue piercing Temp hp, as that can be seen as a pool of damage reduction. I would far, far prefer to just make the attack magical, since that covers 90% of all cases, and doesn't lead to potential weird interactions or debates.

As for the two riders. I have two issues with them. The first is that they are incredibly strong against undead and fiends. Being able to hit with this, and then dealing fire damage to a devil, or giving them disadvantage on saves against banishment is way more than I'm comfortable with, especially since this is explicitly disadvantage, not just rolling normally, which is the standard.

But, my second problem is that if you take those riders out, say you are fighting orcs or giants or dragons or literally anything other than fiends or undead... this is just a weapon that is particularly accurate. It doesn't do anything except become +1d4 more accurate to hit. And I feel like this is a design I'm usually against. With very few exceptions, I don't like designs which specify enemy types, because then you never see them used except against those types. I think the Paladin's Divine Smite is a far better design, where the feature does good damage to everything, but more to specific enemies. This is a normal weapon attack, that suddenly becomes incredibly deadly against high level fiends and undead. Which feels wrong to me.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

This... has a few features I'm not sure of.

I'm torn on the accuracy. It's nice to not miss, but since this stacks with all other accuracy buffs, this becomes quite powerful I think, and doesn't address the damage issue, which I think is a real issue. But, maybe accuracy is a way to go.

My thought is that Clerics don't get extra attack, and since this is a weapon cantrip rather than a Shillelagh clone, there is less option for abuse through multiclassing or Magic Initiate.

"Can't be reduced by any means" feels like it is ripe for abuse. Maybe this is just my gut instinct, but I could see arguments about how immunity "reduces" damage to 0, so monsters can't be immune to this attack. They might also argue piercing Temp hp, as that can be seen as a pool of damage reduction. I would far, far prefer to just make the attack magical, since that covers 90% of all cases, and doesn't lead to potential weird interactions or debates.

This is actually intentional. I don't see a reason that overcoming immunity for a single attack is terribly broken. On most creatures it just does damage. On some creatures, it does "double damage" compared to what it would normally hit, but the difference is still limited to 1-6 points of damage assuming you are using a weapon that doesn't have multiple damage types like a frostbrand or something. I don't see the argument about piercing Temp HP, since that is treated as HP. Temp HP doesn't reduce the damage dealt so much as give you more points to soak damage. There are other effects in 5e with damage that can't be reduced. I would need to look for specific citations, but I'm 95% sure they exist. Just not necessarily as part of a character's suite of abilities/spells/etc.

Personally, I don't mind a Blessed Blade strike slashing through a creature that would be immune to even magical slashing damage. All this cantrip does it ensure that your attack is effective. Especially when you consider alternative cantrips use radiant damage, which VERY few creatures are resistant or immune to.

As for the two riders. I have two issues with them. The first is that they are incredibly strong against undead and fiends. Being able to hit with this, and then dealing fire damage to a devil, or giving them disadvantage on saves against banishment is way more than I'm comfortable with, especially since this is explicitly disadvantage, not just rolling normally, which is the standard.

This is a fair argument and I'm trying to grapple with how to refine the idea. I really like the idea of a cleric using this less to get in the big hit themselves, but to create the opening for the team to make the big hits. I feel like that is the gimmick I'm aiming for and is inline with the way I envision a melee cleric. But YMMV.

But, my second problem is that if you take those riders out, say you are fighting orcs or giants or dragons or literally anything other than fiends or undead... this is just a weapon that is particularly accurate. It doesn't do anything except become +1d4 more accurate to hit. And I feel like this is a design I'm usually against. With very few exceptions, I don't like designs which specify enemy types, because then you never see them used except against those types. I think the Paladin's Divine Smite is a far better design, where the feature does good damage to everything, but more to specific enemies. This is a normal weapon attack, that suddenly becomes incredibly deadly against high level fiends and undead. Which feels wrong to me.

I don't mind the accuracy issue, but I can see where others might. But there is precedent for cantrips that affect certain kinds of enemies differently, such as how Shocking Grasp is more accurate against enemies wearing metal armor or how Chill Touch affects undead. I think my reason for the bump in power is specifically because there isn't a flashy mechanic against non-fiends/undead, and my own bias on how I envision clerics functioning in my games. It may be better to limit the riders to the next attack before the end of the caster's turn, but that doesn't resolve the issue of fighting non-fiend/undead creatures.

Where a cantrip like this really comes online is when you get access to your Divine Strikes. At that point, you are ensuring that you are maximizing your opportunities to get the extra damage in.

 

[Yaarel]

So, taking @jgsugden 's approach, maybe something like this?

Blessed Weapon
transmutation cantrip

Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (a sprinkle of holy water and a melee weapon)
Duration: 1 minute
The melee weapon you are holding becomes infused with holy energy. The weapon sheds a bright light in a 10 foot radius and dim light for another 10 feet, and becomes magical, if it isn't already. The weapon loses this enchantment if it leaves your grasp.

When you make a melee attack with this weapon, you can choose to deal 1d8 radiant damage instead of the weapon's normal damage dice.

At 5th level, the weapon does an additional 1d8 radiant damage (2d8 optional) and increases to 2d8 (3d8 optional) at level 11 and 3d8 (4d8 optional) at level 17.


///

I could see making it range touch, @DND_Reborn , but I'm afraid doing that would just lead to them casting it on the fighter, instead of the cleric using it on themselves.

The cantrip looks solid, in itself.

The only concern I have is a Blessed Paladin can get this Cleric cantrip then multiply its higher level damage via extra attack.

Maybe the "At Higher Levels" can clarify that the bonus radiant damage can only happen once per turn.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I play a lot of clerics, and I would take the original proposal as written for any melee build. I wouldn't have it scale with extra damage per level; the only modification of the OP proposal I'd want (want, but not need) would be "does radiant damage". It's flexible, works with any weapon, and does a discrete and useful task.

If it applied to any weapon, that'd be cool, too, since magical crossbows don't appear often.

I'd be reluctant even to swap it out once I had a magical weapon -- it's too useful to have handy.

Great idea @Chaosmancer