D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[dave2008]

I don't think the ask is for a martial with spells, the ask is for supernatural abilities that aren't skinned as magic.

"Magic" is a subset of all supernatural abilities in a fantasy setting. A vampire might have magical abilities like turning into mist or summoning wolves, but they don't "do magic" in the sense they have spellbooks and rituals and special reagents.

Yes, magical warrior, but not a spellcasting warrior. That is what people have been asking for

 

[Haplo781]

The issue was never not want them, it was I didn't think it would happen with the minor changes to 2024 updates. However, then I realized all it takes is to add a class (and there are already good models to base it on). I'm doing many things at once so I just wasn't thinking clearly. Most of my thought was on $44 million project interview! That's done no, so I have more brain space!

You would have to ask someone else, but apparently not. Paladin definitely gets you close and if it was less religious themed and more just innate skill/power it would satisfy some of the posters.

However, I actually think the monk or warlock chassis is the best inspirations for what people are talking about. I started a martial class on these forums a few months ago that was based on the wizard chassis. Just as a proof of concept. Here it is:

The Warrior (or how to balance martial's and casters)​

(Or just do 4e fighter)

 

[Celebrim]

I don't think that's true. I mean, 5e spellcasters are drastically tuned down from 3e and they're still spellcasters.

And yet the first time one casts force cage the problem comes back, to say nothing of even more problematic issues like "I can raise people from the dead reliably".

The first one is treatable, and not by removing force cage. The second though is not a treatable problem. At some point you have to accept that even Saitama is going to be impressed by real magic. The trick is not having Saitama overshadowed by that, which is easy if he is Saitama.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Monk, but strong, in armor, and designed to use weapons. There's not enough design space in monk subclasses, and the base class is too bound up in Shaolin kung-fu tropes anyways.

I dunno, call it martial adept. Maybe have sword sage and warblade as the subclasses.

Expand skills, and have different levels of proficiency that allow for different activities. Proficient, Expertise, Master, Legendary. To keep bounded accurary, proficiency increase can stop with expertise. Let legendary stealth proficiency allow for slipping between shadows or legendary sleight of hand steal someone's identity. Only grant higher skill proficiencies to martials, casters can spend feats if they want it. Like over a third of the PHB is spells, they can spend 3 pages on each skill outlining some advanced/epic stuff.

There should be a reason why not every important character in a D&D world is a caster. Given that magic is as easy to learn as everything else (same exp, and frankly more abilities than those who don't), those not casting should have that extra training time and energy reflected somewhere other than a few lame ribbons.

 

[dave2008]

(Or just do 4e fighter)

You could do something similar, just couldn't call it a fighter. That is a similar concept to my warrior.

 

[DND_Reborn]

"Martials are fine if they can cast spells" isn't a solution to martials being underpowered.

That wasn't what I was asking about, it was this:

they want a new class(es) with magical martial abilities.

All those classes and subclasses have magical martial abilities.

Martials being underpowered is a different issue, which solutions might or might not involve magic or magical features.

I don't think the ask is for a martial with spells, the ask is for supernatural abilities that aren't skinned as magic.

"Magic" is a subset of all supernatural abilities in a fantasy setting. A vampire might have magical abilities like turning into mist or summoning wolves, but they don't "do magic" in the sense they have spellbooks and rituals and special reagents.

Aren't skinned as magic or aren't skinned as spells?

I mean, for example, monks being able to leap 50+ feet is pretty supernatural while not skinned as magic.

The Warrior (or how to balance martial's and casters)

Too fiddly for me, personally.

 

[dave2008]

Monk, but strong, in armor, and designed to use weapons. There's not enough design space in monk subclasses, and the base class is too bound up in Shaolin kung-fu tropes anyways.

I dunno, call it martial adept. Maybe have sword sage and warblade as the subclasses.

That was generally my thought, but it could be based off another class or something completely new too.

 

[Celebrim]

This begs the question of why "narrative force" is/should be inherently a function of spellcasting.

Because that's what 'magic' is. Belief in magic is belief in plot armor and narrative force in the real world. It's belief that you can make the universe do what you want just by wanting it in some fashion. All magic shares this trait, rather real magic or the genre magic of fantasy. It's the 'Try not; do, or do not', idea. If magic loses that trait, it is going to not seem like magic. It will be the +1 sword problem.

I posit that it shouldn't.

Oh, it should, but designers should be really careful of introducing absolute narrative force the way that they haphazardly did in the past to be terse, particularly when this absolute thing overshadows non-magic users. That is, don't create magic powers that can only be solved by other magic. Quantify everything so that it doesn't work absolutely.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Exactly my point. So no amount of making a fighter hit things with a stick better ever will solve the problem.

right... I'm not asking for damage

 

[TwoSix]

The first one is treatable, and not by removing force cage. The second though is not a treatable problem. At some point you have to accept that even Saitama is going to be impressed by real magic. The trick is not having Saitama overshadowed by that, which is easy if he is Saitama.

Sure, and to my mind the easiest solution is that the person who can raise the dead is still going to get their ass kicked by Saitama. They shouldn't be able to take down bad guys just as easily AND raise the dead.