D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[Fanaelialae]

I've only read the first page but I wanted to comment on something. Apologies if this was addressed further in the thread.

I see Robin Hood and Hercules being used as examples of the mundane fighter vs the epic fighter, with the idea that guys like Hercules get their power suddenly and guys like Robin Hood can't.

What about Beowulf? An "ordinary" warrior (no godly heritage, or such) yet he accomplishes great deeds, including ripping a powerful monster's arm off with his bear hands. While he is an accomplished warrior by the time the poem starts, it certainly isn't beyond the scope of imagination to envision him as "level 1" at some point in the past.

Rather than look at the examples that don't work for D&D, we should look for the examples that do. You can't really do Gandalf in D&D (a powerful angelic being) but that certainly doesn't preclude powerful wizards in the game.

 

[Haplo781]

Only if the car weighs less than 600 lbs. since that is their limit to push, pull, drag; otherwise RAW they can't, say what you want.


I agree, that would be nice...

You don't need to lift a car to cave in the roof. Which is clearly what's happened in the photo.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It'd still be nice if a maximum STR fighter was as physically capable as normal dudes in our actual world who lift, bro.

a fighter at max level with prof in athletics and acrobatics and a 20 str dex and con would not take a single gold medal at the olympics...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What about Beowulf? An "ordinary" warrior (no godly heritage, or such) yet he accomplishes great deeds, including ripping a powerful monster's arm off with his bear hands. While he is an accomplished warrior by the time the poem starts, it certainly isn't beyond the scope of imagination to envision him as "level 1" at some point in the past.

great example

 

[Malmuria]

I wonder if there was some way to nerf casters. Like, just throwing this out there, what if they only had d4 HD, and couldn't wear armor, and needed double the number of xp every level compared to the thief?

 

[DND_Reborn]

You don't need to lift a car to cave in the roof. Which is clearly what's happened in the photo.

The video shows the Rhino tossing the car and rolling it over and over.

YOU specifically said:

Greg the Blacksmith should be able to flip over an SUV by level 6, and probably without even rolling.

So, yeah, your initial point was not just "cave in the roof".

That is what I meant, you change the goalposts to meet your own point.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I wonder if there was some way to nerf casters. Like, just throwing this out there, what if they only had d4 HD, and couldn't wear armor, and needed double the number of xp every level compared to the thief?

Again: Doesn't actually do anything with fighters except show the casters how we feel having a poorly designed class.

 

[Haplo781]

The video shows the Rhino tossing the car and rolling it over and over.

YOU specifically said:


So, yeah, your initial point was not just "cave in the roof".

That is what I meant, you change the goalposts to meet your own point.

My dude, the post you were responding to very clearly said "a fighter still, RAW, hits hard enough to do this," with a photo of an SUV with a caved in roof. (Bold added.)

You chose to ignore that while quoting said post, which sounds a whole lot like a bad-faith argument to me.

 

[Umbran]

I don't think you can. You can't give Steve Rogers as much narrative control as Wanda Maximoff just by the nature of their schtick. You can however make Steve Rogers cool.

You can't give Steve Rogers the same narrative control. But his could be just as large within his bailiwick. His narrative control when considering leading people, for example, should far outstrip hers.

 

[Alzrius]

I chose Steve for my example because he gets that flavor of being a Fighter right, where as Spidey to me feels more like a sorcerer whose spells all have a spider theme (especially in versions when his webs are not tech).

I think there are thematic distinctions to be made with regard to how a character does something, particularly with regard to what's being used (in the context of a fight) to attack versus what's being used to assist with an attack.

That is to say, Spider-Man still ultimately punches and kicks the bad guys he faces, so I see him as a martial character. He certainly has spider-themed abilities, such as wall-crawling, web-slinging, and notable strength, but while he can use the webs as weapons/battlefield control, more often they seem to be used as methods to help him beat up the bad guy. By contrast, "casters" (as a generality) strike me as someone who uses magic to fight directly; you don't see Doctor Strange usually slugging it out with an enemy, for example. (Though obviously, exceptions will exist for both characters.)

Likewise, I'm of the opinion that there's a difference to be drawn with regard to characters that actually cast spells, and those that have some sort of magical/supernatural powers. The former simply seems (to me) to come with a set of assumptions that the latter doesn't necessary have, at least with regard to presentation. Spellcasters carry an implication that they've studied magic for the sake of studying magic, i.e. that it's an esoteric discipline which can be academically pursued and which allows for a wide range of abilities to be acquired outside of any particular theme or grouping. (And, I think, there's a strong sense that "wizard" characters necessarily lack martial abilities as a definitional characteristic; if they regularly resort to punches and kicks, or swords and daggers, etc., then that necessarily disqualifies them from the idea of being a wizard.)

By contrast, a martial character who simply has "magic" seems (again, to me) like they're harnessing some particular ability without really caring about how it works, only that it does and that it can be a useful tool in combat, i.e. they treat it little differently from a sword or a gun. It requires practice, but it's not some sort of gateway to wider understanding. It's also usually limited by some sort of theme that can't be moved beyond (though multiple themes might be possible to learn).

Now, again, those are imperfect definitions; I suspect that most people won't have to look very hard to find examples that defy those categorizations. Even so, I think there's a greater sense that someone like Madara Uchiha is a martial more than a caster, despite the overt supernatural abilities.