D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[Baron Opal II]

I agree. I think the D&D concept of Level, not Class, should reflects this.

The Original D&D (Gygax's) made wizards rightfully weak at low levels. Hell's bells: clerics did not even get a spell at 1st level.

Wizards also were not given two spells per level that they could cast. They had to find or research them. It becomes a lot harder when you aren't simply given the tools to dominate the field.

 

[DND_Reborn]

a fighter at max level with prof in athletics and acrobatics and a 20 str dex and con would not take a single gold medal at the olympics...

Maybe, but that is the fault of the devs in 5E. First, what is "lift" in D&D terms? Dead lift? Military Press? or what?

The Olympics have two lifting events: the Snatch, the Clean and Jerk

The current (I believe) records (for men) for those two events are:

267 kg = 589 lbs, under the 600 lbs maximum a STR 20 PC can "lift". Given the ambiguous use of "lift" in D&D, a DM could certainly apply that 600 maximum to either of these events, allowing a STR 20 PC to win BOTH GOLD MEDALS and establish new world records.

 

[DND_Reborn]

My dude, the post you were responding to very clearly said "a fighter still, RAW, hits hard enough to do this," with a photo of an SUV with a caved in roof. (Bold added.)

First, I am not your "dude". Second, Heaven forbid I should go back to your original argument...

With a magical +3 greatsword, the fighter can do more damage on average than the rhino (2d6+8 = 15 vs. 2d8+5 = 14). So, it is already part of the game. You could probably find other ways to do it....

You chose to ignore that while quoting said post, which sounds a whole lot like a bad-faith argument to me.

Ditto, so let's just drop it? I really don't want to have to use the Ignore feature.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Martials should level into anime, imo, the everyman against the world is a low level fantasy, a level 10+ everyman is an oxymoron. The games more or less already work that way, like, how is your dude actually hurting this thing? in any game 9+/10 times its going to be by swinging his sword into it, which has some very strong implications for how much force is actually behind the swing considering how little a town guard would do with the same swing, and if the swing is that hard, what does that say about your jumps? about your durability to take this thing's breath to the face?

Heck, screw DND, look at LOTR/The Hobbit's Legolas:


I think this is about reasonable for a level 6 character.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Martials are great at dealing damage, a mid-level Fighter can punch an Elephant to death with the right fighting style, and by high level they can survive things that'd kill a normal person a million times over, like getting hit by comets as powerful as nukes, being bitten by a moon, swimming in lava, faceplanting onto concrete after jumping from orbit, etc.

Besides those though, they can lack a lot in cool things to do. I've started playing PF2e, and my level 3 Monk has more options, and can often do cooler things than the high level martials I've played in D&D.

 

[Celebrim]

I think there are thematic distinctions to be made with regard to how a character does something, particularly with regard to what's being used (in the context of a fight) to attack versus what's being used to assist with an attack.

That is to say, Spider-Man still ultimately punches and kicks the bad guys he faces, so I see him as a martial character. He certainly has spider-themed abilities, such as wall-crawling, web-slinging, and notable strength, but while he can use the webs as weapons/battlefield control, more often they seem to be used as methods to help him beat up the bad guy.

I run a homebrew variant of 3e. If a player came to me and said, "I want my character to basically be Spider-Man", I'd say two things.

"First, Spider Man is super powerful and, in this game, you start out as an ordinary guy with a lot of potential who is not super powerful. So your character will have to grow incrementally into being spider man starting from fairly humble beginnings. It's not just getting bit with a magical spider, and suddenly you are a demigod. Your character will have to work to get there."

And the second thing I'd tell him is, "Ok, to reliably have control over that spider theme, you probably want to be a sorcerer of some sort and you'll want to take spells like: web splat, web line, spider climb, body weaponry, combat precognition, mage armor, bull's strength, cat's grace, and of course web. And sense you are beating people up, you'll probably want to take the feat 'Arcane Strike' because it will give you very flexible combat powers. One problem I've had with players that do this sort of thing before is they eventually can't resist the temptation to branch out and do useful things that don't fit the theme they originally had. The rules don't constrain you to just picking a set of themed spells, and it's really hard to write up a set of fair rules that rewards a player for picking spells in a theme. This is not a Supers game where you can choose everything you do ahead of time and get rewarded for being a narrow one trick pony. I had a player want to play a telepath and they stuck with it for like seven levels or so and were a useful party member, but the temptation to do big splashy damaging effects got to them and they started adding in things splashier things like Shrapnel Burst. Ultimately, that's on you. I'm not going to tell you who your character is."

Likewise, I'm of the opinion that there's a difference to be drawn with regard to characters that actually cast spells, and those that have some sort of magical/supernatural powers. The former simply seems (to me) to come with a set of assumptions that the latter doesn't necessary have, at least with regard to presentation. Spellcasters carry an implication that they've studied magic for the sake of studying magic, i.e. that it's an esoteric discipline which can be academically pursued and which allows for a wide range of abilities to be acquired outside of any particular theme or grouping.

Sorcerers don't carry that baggage. Like, I think we can both readily agree that Charlie from "Firestarter" is in D&D terms some sort of Sorcerer with a pyromancy theme. She doesn't have the presentation of studying magic or academics or any of that wizardly stuff. Despite being the product of esoteric technology, she is some sort of magical/supernatural being. In Stephen King's terms, she either does or probably does "Shine".

So, if we agree on that, then let me go one further. You can imagine a wizard whose schtick is using magic to beat people up good. You don't have to use fireballs to beat people up. You could transform yourself into Hyde, use the equivalent of magical steroids to beef up and turn your skin into flexible bronze, and pound the crap out of people. While wizards maybe don't do that often by inclination or practicality, they certainly could. It's within the realm of magic.

Consider the Jedi Knights. They are certainly wizard warriors. They use divination magic to predict and counter opponent's attacks, and telekinesis magic to give them an edge over enemies. They certainly are using swords and aren't disqualified as wizards. They are not fighters/martial classes (the way Han Solo, Cad Bane or Boba Fett is).

So yeah, if you want to be Spiderman in my game, you don't go at it by being a martial class. And if you are like, "This sucks. I'm a weak Spider Man, and then I run out of magic and I'm like really vulnerable.", I'll be like, "Well, yeah, but if you were actually spider-man who had 80 times the strength of a normal human and all these powers all the time, you'd overshadow the rest of the party. Also, the spider-man you love has the power of plot. He ought to die in the first good machine gun blast if we were doing actual simulation, because he's not quick enough to dodge multiple bullets even if he gets a head start due to spider sense, and nothing about him actually implies he gained super durability."

 

[Haplo781]

Perhaps because...

The visual implies some elements of the physicality, and thus implies the severe leverage problem involved in having a 6' tall creature try to swing a 20' tall one around.

The spellcasters have a reason behind being able to tell the laws of physics to shut up and sit down. Hercules has a reason - he's half god himself. Your fighter needs a reason, and, "I fight a lot," doesn't narratively cut it.

Clearly you've never done judo

 

[Haplo781]

With a magical +3 greatsword, the fighter can do more damage on average than the rhino (2d6+8 = 15 vs. 2d8+5 = 14). So, it is already part of the game. You could probably find other ways to do it....

I'm sure a rhino would hit harder with a magic sword too. This is not a valid argument.

 

[Scribe]

Clearly you've never done judo

I have and I've yet to see someone turned into a baseball bat.

 

[Haplo781]

I have and I've yet to see someone turned into a baseball bat.

And yet you can flip a guy who weighs 3x as much as you over your shoulder. And you aren't as strong as a rhino.