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D&D (2024) Auto-succeed/fail on ability checks

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And "inappropriate or impossible" applies to the character's specific capabilities. If it's impossible for a player to roll high enough to succeed, they automatically fail without making a roll. That has not changed.
It HAS changed to a degree. The new rules opens up to the DM the ability to allow things that used to be outside of the PC's capabilities to be within them with a lucky roll. It doesn't require you to do so, so you can still rule that it's impossible, but it's not against the new RAW to also rule that someone with a 0 modifier can succeed at a DC 30 check on a natural 20. It's up to the DM.
 

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Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
It HAS changed to a degree. The new rules opens up to the DM the ability to allow things that used to be outside of the PC's capabilities to be within them with a lucky roll. It doesn't require you to do so, so you can still rule that it's impossible, but it's not against the new RAW to also rule that someone with a 0 modifier can succeed at a DC 30 check on a natural 20. It's up to the DM.
The DM could always have a player roll when they shouldn't have been able to succeed.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think they tried to clarify a rule they thought was in the game from the beginning, but it led to a bunch of confusion because people played it differently.
It didn't need that sort of clarification. Under the 2014 rules, if you have +1 you need a natural 20 to succeed at a DC 21 check, a 19 to succeed at a DC 20, and cannot succeed at a DC 22. They wouldn't have put in auto succeed if they were talking about the scenario there with the +1 and a DC 21 check. They put it in to tell us that if we want to, we can allow that +1 to succeed on a natural 20 even if the DC is 25. Or we can continue to rule it impossible.
 

Impossible for who?

If folks who couldn't succeed on 20 before don't get the roll, then the new rule is pointless, isn't it?
Impossible period. Only truly impossible things are now impossible.

If you’re a weirdo and are gatekeeping things behind a DC 30 check you know full well no one in the party can pass, you’ve allowed that rolls are possible, before everyone would fail, but now everyone has a 5% chance.

Edit: The idea that only some people can roll isn’t a thing imho, in my game. Tasks are either rollable (possible) or not (impossible). Certainly, before there where things PCs could roll for that they’d never succeed at so, maybe I wouldn’t bother having them roll, but now, if it’s possible for some entity, it’s possible for all. Play it how you like.
 
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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Unless they're trying to clarify a rule that was supposed to be in 5e from the first place.
Feels like they could have updated that along the way...
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... and odd that they would have so explicitly explained it for the attack (and not put it in the general space), if that was the intent.

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Are there any quotes that you've run across that imply it was supposed to have been for everything?
 

The issue comes when the action is so specialized or lore is so secretive that the nonspecialist could not have perform the action nor happened across the info.

Therefore the fiat of the DM to determine the impossible becomes more important.

It's not a bad thing but it's a new thing to think about.
I agree, but I still want to push back on the "impossible" idea, by saying that I've been a specialist in a few fields, and there is very little knowledge that is actually impossible for a (generally) non-proficient person to randomly know something about and very few tasks that are actually impossible for a non-proficient person to, with a lot of luck, accomplish, if they actually attempted them.

What there is, is a whole lot of things that are much more improbable than a 5% chance that a non-specialist would succeed at. So the decision DMs have to make is whether they are okay with the level of heightened reality that enables unlikely characters to succeed at unlikely things (sometimes incredibly unlikely things) 5% of the time, or whether they need more verisimilitude on this front in their magical fantasy game, in which case they will need to be more careful about allowing people to roll for things.

Basically what you have to do is, before allowing a roll by a character for whom success feels like it should be impossible, think about whether success at the particular thing by that particular character would be inconsistent with the tone of your game.

Personally the only things that come to mind where I am uncomfortable with the "wrong character" succeeding at in my games are checks that I am only allowing to another character because of their backstory, and attempts to perform with a musical instrument by someone who has never played any related musical instrument (being a natural is okay, but you aren't going to figure out the lute on the first strum).

I think improbable checks are generally better gated behind character background than proficiency. After all the 5e skill system does not generally make much logical sense (if I have a background in religion my religion skills grow with my general proficiency from experience in non-religious studies related adventures?) and it seems like anything made possible to succeed at through a general proficiency in one of 5e's very general skills should not be completely impossible for someone who is not proficient. But if the reason you allow someone to roll is not because they have the Arcana proficiency, but because their background is that they acquired that proficiency at a mage school and it seems like they are rolling for a piece of arcane knowledge that, in your setting, virtually nobody outside of magic schools would ever know, then it makes a lot more sense to gate other characters off from that roll.
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
Modifiers aren't enough for everything. I'm a smart guy and have a fairly good int bonus and have an interest in history. That doesn't compare to what someone who has a degree in history. He will know a lot of things that I don't, even if his proficiency bonus means that he and I have the same plus.

It's not at all unfair to exclude those who are not proficient from some rolls.
I think it is far more interesting to ask why that person with no training knew that thing. Maybe they used to date a wizard who never stopped talking about that thing. Awesome -- now we know more about the PC, which is always good, and the GM has something potentially actionable (one of the villain's henchman turns out to be the old girlfriend!). I am a firm believer that weird die results are opportunities for interesting moments and details to be added to the game.

One thing that does warrant a pause to consider, though, is how rules interact with things like niches, which a rule like "a 20 only auto succeeds is the character is proficient" protects.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Impossible period. Only truly impossible things are now impossible.

If you’re a weirdo and are gatekeeping things behind a DC 30 check you know full well no one in the party can pass, you’ve allowed that rolls are possible, before everyone would fail, but now everyone has a 5% chance.

A DC 30 could be impossible at first. But D&D 5e is a game of modifiers and rerolls. So a party can group features, items, allies, and aid to boost a roll.

So the DC to know the name of the demon summon by the BBEG would be secret and impossible to know without being a member of a group associated with the BBEG or the magic use of magic. Straight knowing it is DC 30 or DC25. Impossible for a typical level 5 party but with contacts, books, allies, mental magic, and divination magic. Great for adventuring.

But now, all 4 members roll and someone rolls a nat 20. "Oh the barmaid I dated once told me the name of 7 demon princes"
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Not to mention all the experts who will brainfart 5% of the time on DC5 checks.
 

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