D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[payn]

At least for me, the only correct response to BA would be to treat it like Bane treats a Bat.

I think thats a long wait for a train that wont come.

 

[Staffan]

I personally feel a magic item economy and player agency over their gear is something that needs to come back.

Also good magic items. Those have been extinct for basically two whole editions now.

I don't mind a magic item economy as long as Bigger Numbers are kept out of it, and it is instead kept to Cool Powers. People shouldn't have to choose between a cloak of arachnida and ring of protection.

I think some people want to play a supers game.

The issue is that at mid-to-high levels, casters are already playing at a different level than martials. And the closest thing we can point at that are really powerful martials are superheroes or, occasionally, anime characters.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

So, for a more concrete example, what are people's opinions on the good ol' fighting endless hordes of mooks?

Say, a level 20 Fighter with mundane gear, surrounded on all sides by normal Guards, how many should he be able to kill before going down? Ten, one hundred, thousands, millions, etc.

 

[James Gasik]

A good question. "Super high power" how do you determine that? A fighter who can take on dozens of goblins, but falls victim to hundreds? Should a "super high power" fighter be threatened by any amount of goblins? These are question asked by both 5E and PF2 designers.

I like bounded accuracy because it helps me make sense of the setting. Why does a dragon that could wipe out all civilization put up with it? Well, in a bounded accuracy world a dragon cant wipe out towns and cities with out serious risk of injury and death. So, instead it preys on small groups. Folks often say, why does the town/city even need adventurers if they can kill the dragon themselves? Well, they would lose about 75% of the population doing so. Hiring adventurers sounds like a much better alternative.

The above story assumes a setting where the world is fantastic, but folks range from ordinary to strong. Some folks want a world that more resembles Marvel. Where the PCs (and I suppose their foes) are inherently extraordinary in a slightly more fantastic world then our own. They are awesome because they got bit by a spider or dipped in gods blood. They are unique and everyone else is ordinary. More importantly, they go from being challenged by goblins, to never being challenged by any number of goblins. PF2 was designed more for the "super high power" type of setting. A differentiation they specifically chose in the face of 5E and BA.

That said, I doubt WotC is going to give up on BA. That means trying to figure out what "super high power" means in a system with BA?

Except not really, because almost every normal person the Dragon would encounter would fail their fear save, I imagine.

 

[James Gasik]

But no vita-rays. That tech is lost.

Though there's been enough super soldiers since that you have to wonder how necessary Dr. Reinstein's vita-rays are.

 

[payn]

Except not really, because almost every normal person the Dragon would encounter would fail their fear save, I imagine.

Just another reason why bands of villagers dont go around killing dragons unless they are attacked by them.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Though there's been enough super soldiers since that you have to wonder how necessary Dr. Reinstein's vita-rays are.

Have we seen them fight Cap, though? They might be lower tier, because I think canonically only the Red Skull was on par. Falcon and Winter Soldier never received that serum. (I think)

 

[James Gasik]

Have we seen them fight Cap, though? They might be lower tier, because I think canonically only the Red Skull was on par. Falcon and Winter Soldier never received that serum. (I think)

Hm. He trained Jack Monroe (Nomad) for a hot minute, who is definitely not as powerful. Cap has beaten USAgent as well. Honestly it's up in the air, because what a lot of people forget about Cap is that it's not just his peak-human (or mildly superhuman) physical abilities that win him battles, but his experience and training. There's a reason Cap's moves are part of Taskmaster's arsenal, after all.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I believe one request was that the martial should be able to pick Orcus up and use him like a club to kill all of the other things in his army, or something like that. I'm assuming that was facetious, but this topic seems to usually have lots of that and sarcasm to spare.

I can't say the origin for that example, but in past threads on this topic, I've seen folks stake the claim that existing 5e martials can basically already do this.

It goes something along the lines of:

Those fantasy things you've suggested are ridiculous; martials are already super. Consider what this one specific max-level fighter optimized and fully geared specifically for fighting low level hordes can do against a "horde" that is never more than 500 combatants, that never has or never uses ranged weaponry, that never readies melee attacks, never moves, and always only attacks with a pittance of what they could attack with.

 

[Minigiant]

Not everything is super strength. D&D doesn't doe the swordmaster, bowmaster, or axemaster well either.

I mean, the fighter can get a 1d8+7 longsword attack with STR 20 and it literally could literally not deal more damage or get additional effects. It frankly shouldn't be allowed.

A 20th level fighter does not automatically kill OHKO a CR 1/2 22HP gnoll. That should be impossible.