D&D General The Linear Fighter/Quadratic Wizard Problem

[Hussar]

Simplicity might help bring in new players, but it doesn't do much to keep them.

Yeah, because we're seeing droves of people dropping out of the game? Totally shown by the record breaking sales of books and the huge growth of player bases on things like Fantasy Grounds or Roll20.

I really gotta ask where your evidence is that 5e is failing to keep players.

Also, just to add to my last point about playing different games:

I find that even playing 25-30 times a year, we only go up 2 levels or so a year. A 1-30 campaign for me would be like 15 years with the same group gaming every other week. I'd have grandkids by then.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you really, really don't have your finger on the pulse of what a typical table looks like.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you really, really don't have your finger on the pulse of what a typical table looks like.

I have to agree, although I can respect @Celebrim simply plays at a slower pace.

The one 1-20 level game I ran took two years IRL and about 50 "extended" sessions (i.e. 8-12 hours per session), playing about every other week (the last few sessions were level 20 though). It took us about a year to reach 10th level and another year to reach 20th.

The levels took the following number of these "extended" sessions:

The average is about 2.5 sessions per level, but again these are 2-3 times the length of what other groups play IME.

With more typical groups you could double the number of sessions for 4-6 hours.

For most groups, if you are playing every week, I think you can expect to level at least once a month (4-6 weeks maybe?), and more earlier on, of course.

 

[Minigiant]

One thing I think D&D has really struggled with is:

Trading Damage for Effects.

The warrior could with their attack:

1. Deal damage
2. Shove
3. Grapple
4. Disarm (optional)
5. Battle Master Maneuver without weapon and bonus superiority damage (DM adjudication)
   1. Command
   2. Distract
   3. Goad
   4. Feint
   5. Lunge
   6. Menace

The issue is only damage is cumulative. 3 hits for damage deals 50 damage puts a 2255 HP adult blue dragon closer to death or surrender. 3 Shoves or a Grapple & 2 Disarms does not. A martial's effects don't get better.


A caster as they get high level get better effects.

1. The Divinations see more
2. Their Conjurations summon stronger allies and teleport them better
3. The Enchantments affect more of the mind
4. Their Evocations deal more damage

etc etc

So what if Martials could get a stronger Shove or Disarm or Goad or Lunge? What is a 20th level Shove? What is a 11th level Disarm?

 

[DND_Reborn]

What is a 20th level Shove? What is a 11th level Disarm?

Question: are they at-will or limited use?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, because we're seeing droves of people dropping out of the game? Totally shown by the record breaking sales of books and the huge growth of player bases on things like Fantasy Grounds or Roll20.

I really gotta ask where your evidence is that 5e is failing to keep players.

Also, just to add to my last point about playing different games:



I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you really, really don't have your finger on the pulse of what a typical table looks like.

I said what I said. Simplicity does nothing to keep players interested in the game. People do that.

 

[Minigiant]

Question: are they at-will or limited use?

I've been pondering on a Special attack System: The Dragonstrike system.

If you chain X number of nondamaging attacks (Shoves and Disarms) in a row, your last attack can be converted into a Dragonstrike. There are 10 Dragonstrikes, one for each dragon. It's a risk and reward system as if you miss, you lose the opportunity to Dragonstrike AND dealt zero damage.

Dragonstrike	Chain	Effect
White	2	3d12 damage
Brass	2	Knocked out (aka Sleep)
Black	3	????
Copper	3	Hamsturng (aka Slowed)
Green	4	Poisoned plus XdY damage per turn
Bronze	4	Knocked back 50 feet and stunned for 1 turn
Blue	5	????
Silver	5	Paralysis
Red	6	????
Gold	6	Stunned then Weakened

 

[Seramus]

I will also report Level 1 to Level 20 taking about 2 - 2.5 years.
(Anecdotally, of course)

 

[Yaarel]

The Fighter class − in order to be "nonmagical" − needs to become a prestige class that only has levels 1 to 12. There is no level 13 Fighter. Because level 13 is inherently magical.

 

[Hussar]

Question: are they at-will or limited use?

Why does it matter? After all, cantrips scale. A 20th level fire bolt is almost as strong as a fireball to a single target.

 

[Hussar]

I said what I said. Simplicity does nothing to keep players interested in the game. People do that.

Again, proof?