D&D 5E Making Challenging Combats?

[Jfdlsjfd]

EDIT: Notice that an XP budget per PC of 1400 is an "easy" fight for 15th level PC, a "deadly" fight a 6th level one, or an "epic" fight a 4th level PC.

While I probably misunderstood the OP when assuming it was a fair fight for a 15th level group, I thing 6 Helmed Horrors vs a group of 15th level characters is beyond easy... There is a strong chance, depending on initiative, that half of the horros will be killed before they get to act...

 

[Retreater]

What do you mean by "a 15th level fight?" The DMG doesn't design encounters by level. The are designed based on difficulty and XP budget / character level. Saying it is a "15th level fight" has no meaning as far as I can tell in the DMG. So what do you mean by it?

EDIT: Notice that an XP budget per PC of 1400 is an "easy" fight for 15th level PC, a "deadly" fight a 6th level one, or an "epic" fight a 4th level PC.

I use an online encounter calculator that does the math for me, because the multiplier and such is confusing (and a lot of my planning is done without the physical books nearby.) It's listed on the calculator as "Encounter Challenge Rating."

 

[LordEntrails]

Which unfortunately isn't how I'm running the campaign, which is based around short, episodic sessions due to our schedules.

Not sure how RL schedule impacts this. Maybe you all want each episode length to match session length and not carry over to the next session?
For us, we play 2 hours per week. Short sessions, but we have no problem stopping mid-fight if need be. Usually we don't, but for instance we just had our second session of one fight. It's a big battle (one of the BBEGs with a prepared position etc) but we've done this before for big fights. Probably 2 more sessions to go.

Beware that at these level (15+) all the warnings expressed in this thread are compounded. The PCs are entering the "borderline impossible to challenge" area.

It's really not. It just means you have to be willing to hammer them. Fr instance, the 2+ session fight my group is in can be summarized as:
Party: 6 PCs of 17t leve with above average magic items.
NPCs: defending Rivergard Keep (from PotA) led by a buffed up Ammalia Cassalanter with legendary actions and lair actions. Various traps (Symbols) and protections (Guards & Wards) have been prepared and because the party was under surveillance by invisible imps, no surprise. Here's the roster, and so far they are doing OK, though it was a close call a couple of rounds ago as they party got split up.

• Ammalia
• 6 Cambions
• 11 Chain Devils
• 2 superior Chain Devils (Cassalanter Twins)
• 2 Erinyes Dread Champions
• 1 Troubadour Fiend, caster with psychic spells and lair actions
• 12 Hell Hounds
• 6 imps
• 4 Spined Devil Scouts

Though I did not calculate CRs and XP for my modified NPCs, it puts this encounter somewhere in the 80k XP range. Well past the Certain Death threshold in the DMG, but I expect the party to win, though due to early tactics I thought they were going to have to retreat.

I witnessed once a CR-appropriate challenge at level 20 that ended with the party having lost 9 HP. Across all of them.

See above, the DMG guidelines are crap once you get to Tier 2.

 

[Quickleaf]

For whatever the maths are worth, your test fight pitted them against double the five person 6th level party's minimum "Deadly" threshold (7,000 adjusted xp > 13,200 adjusted xp).

Another way of saying this is that you used about 66% of their adventuring day XP budget (which is 20,000 adj xp) in a single encounter.

Pumping up the numbers is definitely one of the dials you can turn to increase challenge. I think it's very worthwhile, especially with shorter more episodic sessions.

However, these examples you gave are really good points to explore more deeply... Just adding 1-2 twists to each can really up the stakes and challenge for your 6th level characters...

Yeah, I know. But there's only so much a DM can do when their group wants to return to 5e after having tried several other systems and found it to be their "sweet spot."
To the antithesis of this example, I'm also running a game for another group (with 2nd level characters) that manages to feel challenging, exciting, and varied each session. It's just that the very principles of the encounter design are already so different by 6th level.
Examples:
Assassin is poised on a shadowy rooftop. Monk does a shadow step up there as a bonus action, grapples the guy. Paladin grows wings for a minute, flies up there and smites the guy repeatedly until he's paste.

What if the route up to the roof is festooned with banners or clotheslines that could ensnare the winged paladin? Will the paladin risk it or let the monk solo the assassin until the rest of the group can ascend the stairs?

What if the roof can only support so much weight in one spot, so there's a chance of the roof collapsing under the villain & monk, dropping them into the building below?

A crowd of enemies stand between the ranger and his quarry. A quick bonus action of Zephyr Strike, and the ranger can do laps around the foes for no consequence and can easily get to the boss.

What if there are enemies in disguise or otherwise hidden that PCs haven't realized yet, but you've dropped hints that there might be disguised enemies? Yes, the ranger reaches their intended target, but now they're surrounded!

What if there is difficult terrain not of the ranger's favored terrain type, or some kind of terrain obstacle that requires a check to surmount, or a deadfall/pit to jump that exceeds their max running long jump distance?

Want +10 to Stealth, that's Pass Without Trace. Need to see in the dark without a torch? The monk can spend a ki point (which she gets back in a short rest) and see for 8 hours.

Those aren't really encounter examples or unique to 6th level, and the whole darkvision question is a much longer topic, so I'll just speak to Pass Without Trace. The counters I've employed (when thematically appropriate):

• Lack of cover sufficient to hide behind or lack of sufficiently dim light conditions - encouraging players to get creative about how to extinguish light sources, distract sentries, or manipulate cover in order to create the opportunity to Hide in the first place
• Damaging environments or distracting environments that require Concentration checks
• Groups of clustered enemies too far to all be easily engaged, but within yelling distance if they try to call for reinforcements
• Enemies with summoning / teleportation powers or disguised fellows nearby that can cause their numbers to suddenly escalate
• Including a treacherous ally NPC among those benefiting from pass without trace, leaving behind a trail or giving away their position
• Monsters that employ pass without trace on their own ambushes

This sort of "spell one-upsmanship" is built into D&D of all editions at all levels, really. It is an extra bit of work, though, and a GM needs to decide how much enjoyment they get out of that. If it's not at least a little enjoyable, then you can mitigate it by sticking to lower levels, restricting magic, playing a different system, taking breaks to let someone else GM so you can recharge, house ruling whatever the problematic element is (e.g. surprise rules), etc.

Magic weapons make (nearly) all damage resistance pointless.

When you think about it, damage resistances would only be interesting to players insofar as the creative workarounds / solutions the players could devise. Otherwise they're a passive design (they don't showcase what's cool about a monster) that might prolong combat duration. It's a weak point in D&D that has carried over and reached a zenith in 5e.

You have to find a solution that works for you. Maybe you remove them from the game and just use the DMG page 274 as a HP multiplier for such monsters, simple and done.

For me, I've been reworking damage resistances towards a more folkloric feel with very defined countermeasures to each such monster's resistances that reflect its story. This is a labor of love approach, not the quick way. Take your helmed horrors for instance – if they were created by a lovelorn mage whose motive was to punish the elven family that denied his suiting their daughter, and to bind the daughter's spirit to the earthy plane – maybe the damage resistances of his helmed horrors are overcome by "a weapon wielded by someone who knows true love" or "an elven lunar runic blade" or "a weapon wielded by someone blessed by the ghost of his beloved."

The PCs in my group typically have 18-19 AC (with the exception of the wizard). Monsters rarely hit and can't keep up with the damage output of ki flurries, paladin smites, and the ranger's two longbow attacks a round.

Two separate observations, both valid, but I want to distinguish them...

High AC characters have lots of counters you can employ:

• Monsters that Hide, become Invisible, use the Help action (this is a BIG one), or otherwise regularly gain advantage to attack.
• Monsters that inflict Blinded, Paralyzed, Prone, Restrained, or Stunned conditions (thereby their side gains advantage to attack)
• Monsters that cast bless or have similar leaders/shamans who can boost attack bonus.
• Monsters that target saving throws.
• Monsters that use dangerous terrain by focusing on Shoving & Grappling.
• Monsters uniquely suited to a dangerous/trapped environment, like kobolds who slip below cave fisher silk tripwires or are too light individually to trigger pressure plates, or salamanders immune to ongoing heat damage emanating from the ancient dwarven forge.
• Judicious and rare application of armor-targeting effects like being suddenly plunged underwater or the heat metal spell.
• Monsters that employ counterspell and/or dispel magic to debuff PCs relying on magical defenses such as shield.
• Monsters that appear in overwhelming numbers such that you use the Mob rules in the DMG which completely circumvent attack rolls in favor of "weight of numbers."

Damage output of monsters can be an issue as you press into higher levels – it's very uneven, so you have some monsters that don't even compete, while others can be really devastating (e.g. banshee or the titanoboa from Tome of Beasts). One metric I use is keeping track of my party's average maximum HP value, which often works out to something like a d8 HD and +1 Con modifier, so at 6th level I might keep 41 HP in the back of my mind.

So if we go back to your hypothetical helmed horror idea, it's going to take 5 attacks that hit (at +6) for the helmed horrors to down a fresh PC, on average (my numbers may be a little off for your group, but you can adjust accordingly). That means in one round at least 3 helmed horrors (out of 5, was it?) attacking the same PC. So you can see the helmed horror damage is on the low side for your 6th level party.

Some tricks I might employ to make the helmed horrors more of a threat would be...

• Give them the booming blade cantrip (they attack then fly away, if the affected PC tries to reach them that PC takes the thunder damage)
• Have some magical device that casts elemental weapons on their swords at initiative count 20, boosting their attack a bit and giving them +1d4 damage per attack, just enough to allow two lucky helmed horrors to potentially down a single PC.
• Include a damaging environment that inflicts low-grade ongoing force, necrotic, or poison damage which the helmed horrors are immune to. Maybe there is a sparking/broken/corrupted wand of magic missile launching random bolts across the room (easily destroyed, but salvaging the magic item requires more effort), or maybe there's a poison gas trap emanating from the visor of a sixth helmed horror that appears to be an inanimate statue until tampered with.

 

[Retreater]

Not sure how RL schedule impacts this. Maybe you all want each episode length to match session length and not carry over to the next session?
For us, we play 2 hours per week. Short sessions, but we have no problem stopping mid-fight if need be. Usually we don't, but for instance we just had our second session of one fight. It's a big battle (one of the BBEGs with a prepared position etc) but we've done this before for big fights. Probably 2 more sessions to go.

It has to do with maintaining interest and pacing, remembering what happened/what spells are in effect/who's taken damage or cast spells. It's just a neater transition to end the session outside of a combat - but I'll do it if I must.

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions. I'll try to do what I can.

 

[dave2008]

I use an online encounter calculator that does the math for me, because the multiplier and such is confusing (and a lot of my planning is done without the physical books nearby.) It's listed on the calculator as "Encounter Challenge Rating."

OK, that is not a thing in the DMG. Perhaps that is the issue, the calculator is wrong? Regardless, at this point I can only suggest that you need to recalibrate based on the results the online builder is giving you. If the calculator says it is a "deadly*" fight and it seems more like it is a "hard" fight, adjust the calculator's results down one or two steps.

*Remember in the DMG definition of deadly a group of PCs is expected to survive fairly easily.

 

[dave2008]

While I probably misunderstood the OP when assuming it was a fair fight for a 15th level group, I thing 6 Helmed Horrors vs a group of 15th level characters is beyond easy... There is a strong chance, depending on initiative, that half of the horros will be killed before they get to act...

Yes, that is easy:

"An easy encounter doesn’t tax the characters’ resources or put them in serious peril."

You should get through this without spending daily resources or really loosing any hit points.

 

[jgsugden]

Common issues when PCs do not feel threatened by encounters: Too few fighters per LR, PCs with more magic than anticipated under the guidelines, and the DM not allowing the monsters to use the tactics they should. In general, however: PCs should survive. by the very nature of that statement, there is a limit to the level of challenge you can provide as a DM without breaking the game. If you want risk of failure in the game, failure has to mean something other than death of the PCs. To0 introduce peril and danger into the game, they have to risk losing things other than their lives if things do not go well.

For example, PCs might face off against 2 very weak creatures that pose no threat to their lives - but the point of the battle might not just be to survive the encounter for the PCs. It might be to stop those creatures from doing something like getting away, like stealing something, or like hurting someone else.

 

[dave2008]

The PCs in my group typically have 18-19 AC (with the exception of the wizard). Monsters rarely hit and can't keep up with the damage output of ki flurries, paladin smites, and the ranger's two longbow attacks a round.

Your group should be able to tackle a fight with a CR17-19 monster. Many of these monsters have attack bonuses in the +11 - +14 range. With multiattack they should be hitting every round. You can target saving throws too, or buff hit chances with advantage (lots of ways to get that) for creatures with low attack modifiers.

 

[Stalker0]

Probably the most consistent advice you are seeing here which I agree with is just add more monsters. 5e's power curve really gives the edge to hordes over a single strong creature....ESPECIALLY when you have 5 or 6 PCs, as your ability to focus a single target down is much stronger than what 4 PCs can do.

So when in doubt, trade in big monsters for several monsters, or maybe have a single decent big monster as a center piece with a number of smaller monsters around.