D&D 5E How do you define “mother may I” in relation to D&D 5E?

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Finally, the only remaining escape clause is "...but they will not risk their lives for you." Not only did the party have no indication that them staying there would put the farmers' lives at risk (and it sounds like, if they had known that, they would have sheltered elsewhere!),

It never occurred to me that a commoner in a medieval setting would think that harboring fugitives wouldn't put them at risk if discovered. (The example was so long ago, were they not fugitives from a hoard of armed folks?).

[And again, it does feel like there were opportunities for the DM to foreshadow stuff - and I would have done so - since the party was keeping look out around the big barn doors, assuming of course nothing was happening on the sides of the building without doors for them to see it.]
 

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It never occurred to me that a commoner in a medieval setting would think that harboring fugitives wouldn't put them at risk if discovered. (The example was so long ago, were they not fugitives from a hoard of armed folks?).

[And again, it does feel like there were opportunities for the DM to foreshadow stuff - and I would have done so - since the party was keeping look out around the big barn doors, assuming of course nothing was happening on the sides of the building without doors for them to see it.]
Why would it be lethally dangerous? Are the Duke's guards truly so violently murderous that the townsfolk live in abject fear and turn on those who have been kind to them at the instant the guards appear?
 


How does one foreshadow without running a railroad?
It feels like if the Duke's men are trying to capture the party, that giving hints and clues about what the Duke's men are attempting wouldn't involve a railroad?

It's only possible to give indications of what's going to happen if it's already decided what's going to happen.

By foreshadow, I meant "It looks like one of the neighbors is keeping an eye on you and running off once in a while, only to return later." or "You hear a pounding and banging, and maybe a shriek once in a while coming from the other side of the village." or "It seems to be very quiet all of a sudden." or something else hinting they might want to investigate or that they're hiding place might not be indefinitely foolproof.
 

Why would it be lethally dangerous? Are the Duke's guards truly so violently murderous that the townsfolk live in abject fear and turn on those who have been kind to them at the instant the guards appear?

If the Duke's guards aren't so violently murderous why would the party be afraid of them so much? ;-)
But seriously, what is the typical punishment for thwarting the ruler's will in regards to finding fugitives. In Disney's animated Robin Hood it didn't seem good! (Or does it have to be only fear of their life, and being locked up or having their livelihood seized doesn't count?).
 

How does one foreshadow without running a railroad?

It's only possible to give indications of what's going to happen if it's already decided what's going to happen.
Especially given the incredibly tight 8hr window for the PCs to fully recover all hp and all nonitem based resources. The "hints and clues" people like @Cadence are calling for have already been given or the players wouldn't consider hiding from them as they did.


If the Duke's guards aren't so violently murderous why would the party be afraid of them so much? ;-)
But seriously, what is the typical punishment for thwarting the ruler's will in regards to finding fugitives. In Disney's animated Robin Hood it didn't seem good! (Or does it have to be only fear of their life, and being locked up or having their livelihood seized doesn't count?).
Pretty much anything could be a thing that causes a fear for their life. Even something simple as knowing that the Duke would raise taxes or withdraw guards from the nearby forest on the town would make surviving the next winter or spring* monster proliferation season a serious risk in some areas.

Do you really mean to suggest it is reasonable to drop fire-immune completely random guards on a party? We clearly have very different ideas of what is "entirely within the spirit of the rules."

"completely random guard" is not the same as "the duke's guard". Yes it can be a reasonable thing. depending on the situation. We were obviously going beyond the original example to a whole new hypothetical when the fireball & immune/resist got raised since they were never part of the original. I'm continuing with that whole new encounter with a whole different set of guards for a whole different duke because of that. Otherwise you are asking about the viability of a whole new situation still bound by the old situation & that makes poor boundaries of discussion as it would leave no room to discuss anything.
  • GM:"The guards seem unaffected/not very affected... Obviously he's sent his elite guard after you. You can tell that things have gotten serious & the gloves are off."
    • Player: Wooo! does it look like he's wearing armor of fire resistance?!👀Iwantsitprecious "👀
    • Other Player: 🙏 "Or maybe a ring of it?!🙏"
  • GM:"The guards seem unaffected/not very affected... Obviously the prisoner you were hired to rescue from the tower is no mere concubine as you were told"
  • GM: "Roll with disadvantage... -> As the fireball wavers weakly around the guards you briefly notice the guards within it shift & flicker slightly as if an illusion or similar was in place disguising something very much not mere guards"
    • Player: " is it safe to guess that some of those spell components & such we saw a while back when we did $thing a few weeks ago were more than just the obvious scrying stuff we assumed & maybe things that could involve fiends?"
    • Player: "Can I use arcana to see if I recognize the form in the flicker?"
  • So on & so forth

I genuinely do not understand what the disconnect can possibly be. The explicit player intent was to avoid detection. Avoiding detection is explicitly described in the feature. The DM granted the use of the feature. They then declared that avoiding detection not only did not happen, but that exactly the inverse (an instant and unstoppable ambush due to having been ratted out) happened instead.
The player did avoid detection for 8 hours. The guards continued searching.

"You are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master."
Indeed, you are a different type of GM who runs a different type of game. That has no bearing on your "rank".
*Most creatures give birth in the spring, It was just an example of a season.
 

If the Duke's guards aren't so violently murderous why would the party be afraid of them so much? ;-)
But seriously, what is the typical punishment for thwarting the ruler's will in regards to finding fugitives. In Disney's animated Robin Hood it didn't seem good! (Or does it have to be only fear of their life, and being locked up or having their livelihood seized doesn't count?).
This argument seems to be implying that any threat worth hiding from automatically voids Rustic Hospitality.
 

This argument seems to be implying that any threat worth hiding from automatically voids Rustic Hospitality.

It feels like there is a threshold somewhere in between the Duke's guardsman looks at you with a scowl, and the Duke's guardsman just lopped off your neighbor's head and says "your turn, tell me where they are".

It feels well closer to the later than the former, but still has a lot of space around it.
 

This argument seems to be implying that any threat worth hiding from automatically voids Rustic Hospitality.
That’s a very valid point. Though, I think the alternate should also be avoided - that being: ‘regardless of how the dm determines the outcomes of the players action he can’t have the outcome entail the villagers fearing for their lives.’

I think there’s a happy middle ground between those 2 options.
 

It feels like there is a threshold somewhere in between the Duke's guardsman looks at you with a scowl, and the Duke's guardsman just lopped off your neighbor's head and says "your turn, tell me where they are".

It feels well closer to the later than the former, but still has a lot of space around it.
You sidestepped there. If the Duke's men are scowling, why bother hiding? By your arguments, if you actually want to hide from something, it's too big a threat for Rustic Hospitality to not void itself. That's not a strong argument.

You're effectively deploying the precautionary principle, here -- that any chance of risk has to be addressed as if certain. That's not a strong argument. That the Duke's guards might suspect you, and might come and threaten you, and might kill you is sufficient to be a justification to trigger "risking your life" then there's never an application of RH that can exist. But we have the ability, so that's clearly not the intent.

This is exemplary of a string if arguments made in this thread against the RH example being MMI that all start from the conclusion that it isn't and then work backward to find anything to hang that conclusion on. It's not arguing from first or even second principles, but an exercise is justifying a desired conclusion. With this, we can clearly see the fault because spells like charm person have similar wording about risking life but no one is arguing a multi-step precautionary principle that says a thing that might happen, however unlikely, is sufficient to void those. A player making that argument to sidestep charm or dominate would be quickly dismissed. So it isn't first principles driving this.

But, putting all of that aside, and taking the argument as valid ad arguendo, there's still a problem: you still have the GM selecting a specific set of fiction to threaten townsfolk to void the ability when there are other, equally valid fictions that can be selected. This means that use of tge ability is entirely gated behind the GM's agreement to let it happen, and only to whatever extent the GM wants it to happen, turning this ability into an ask of the GM for permission to deploy it. That's MMI.

And might well not be a problem or issue for a table. MMI isn't about liking what happens or not -- the children's gane doesn't change to a different thing if you like playing it or not -- but about how authority over the fiction is apportioned. That can be fun and good for one table and bad fir another with exactly that same fact pattern in play. Insisting that MMI only be negative is silly. It's not only negative. But like all things, if you don't like how play is happening, you're much more likely to call it out. The claim MMI is only negative is survivor bias.
 

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