D&D 5E [+]What does your "complex fighter" look like?

[GMforPowergamers]

it's more the rogue's combat I feel sorry for than the fighter's. As a rogue I actively want to outthink my foes, not spam Cunning Action.

yeah, if you have a melee or range rouge in a party with a melee warrior type, the answer is always 'double team the guy in melee, get sneak attack'

 

[Micah Sweet]

They did. It was called 4th edition.

And honestly it's more the rogue's combat I feel sorry for than the fighter's. As a rogue I actively want to outthink my foes, not spam Cunning Action.

That I definitely agree with. The closest thing to what people want, from WotC, for a complex fighter is 4th ed.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

even 29th level dailys in the 4e PHB1 are not out classing 9th level spells

rogue ones:
Assassins point. make an attack, if it hits deal crit damage (and if you get sneak attack multiply those dice as well) if you miss deal normal weapon damage.
Immobilizing strike. A creature you are in melee with makes a Con save DC 8+your prof + your dex mod at disadvantage. if they fail the save they take damage as if you crit them and are paralyzed until the end of your next turn. If they make it they take damage as if you hit them normally and are paralyzed until the start of there next turn.
Moving target, trigger: a creature makes an attack roll against you that you can see. Use your reaction to force them to make a Cha save DC 8+your prof+ your cha mod. If they miss the save you get to choose a target within 10ft they make the attack against instead, if they make the save they attack as normal, but if they hit you take only half damage from the atttck

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Okay so lets look at the 4th martial class in 4e, the ranger level 29

Followup blow. before you attack use a bonus action, you can make an off hand attack against every creature you attack with your main weapon
Three in one shot. Make 3 attacks against a target, if the first one hits you gain advantage on the next two, if the 1st one misses but 2nd one hit gain advantage on the third. if any attack misses you still deal your str or dex mod as damage
Weave a Web of Steel. Trigger an enemy hits you in melee you use your reaction to make an attack and an off hand attack

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yeah, basically. The fact that people accept them as meeting their criteria of “martial” instead of magic sort of makes me roll my eyes at the insistence that it’s this big super duper important distinction and they can’t possibly be happy without a pure martial.

So this is really the core of the problem.

'Actual game abilities' are always and forever going to spells to some people.

Until we break that philosophy, we're not going to get far with good martial design.

 

[Bill Zebub]

'Actual game abilities' are always and forever going to spells to some people.

For me that's only true if it's a per rest resource. Reckless Attacks, Shove, even GWM/SS, are not...to me, at least..."spell-like".

And, again, it's not that I personally care about the "magic" vs. "martial" designation. I just want a different core mechanic, and one in which the trade-off is tactical, not just resource conservation. Reckless Attacks you have to weigh whether the benefit is worth being an easy target; it's not always better to use it. But using Expertise Dice is always better than not using Expertise Dice; the only trade-off is that you might wish you had them before the next rest. To me, that trade-off defines the core spellcasting* mechanic: use it now or save it for later. I want a different kind of game mechanic to be the core mechanic for non-spellcasters. Otherwise it's just fluff.

*Really the core magic mechanic, because it's the same for potions and scrolls and magic items with charges.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And, again, it's not that I personally care about the "magic" vs. "martial" designation. I just want a different core mechanic, and one in which the trade-off is tactical, not just resource conservation. Reckless Attacks you have to weigh whether the benefit is worth being an easy target; it's not always better to use it. But using Expertise Dice is always better than not using Expertise Dice; the only trade-off is that you might wish you had them before the next rest. To me, that trade-off defines the core spellcasting* mechanic: use it now or save it for later. I want a different kind of game mechanic to be the core mechanic for non-spellcasters. Otherwise it's just fluff.

My answer to that is that pacing yourself and conserving your endurance for the big moments are fundamentally things people do in the real world - and those are resource conservation. And therefore excluding what real world athletes do just because fictional wizards also do it is putting the cart before the horse.

That said I'm with you. Risk/reward is much more interesting than resource conservation and not having all fighter maneuver abilities all the time because you need opportunities is also good. (This is why earlier, I think in this thread, Tide of Iron and Sweeping Blow - both of which are situationally useful and change how you behave). I don't think that resource management should be off the table - but I do think that there are better choices.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And also, like basically everything in the game; it's an abstraction for the purposes of the game. A game with limited ways to present discreet powers because spells ate everything forever apparently.

Yes, mechanically, it's per rest (preferably short as I feel that per day resources should be SHARPLY limited), but in-universe it's because you're having to wait for an opening to allow it to happen and once you execute it, enemies that watched it happen will be on guard for it.

Additionally, per-encounter powers have two purposes:

1) to limit on abilities too powerful to be at-will

2) enforcing variety in abilities and tactics.

I often take note of what is actually attributed to 2 and give those options to recharge on an encounter.

As for risk/reward mechanics, the issue you're going to run into is several-fold:

1) It's difficult to standardize with any variety.
What you'd need is a rather robust set of conditions to proc off of their use. Otherwise, you're going to just get random penalties applied to risks, which runs into the problem of...

2) Designers are people.
And... that's a lot of work to put on people to make a whole system on the order of spells with absolutely none of the standardization, structure, and shortcuts of spells. And that's impacted by...

3) Limited Design Space
Same old song: Disadvantage or Exhaustion there's precocious little more in 5e to actually work as a design lever. And because I see a dozen hands racing toward the 'exhaustion button...

4) Caster-Favored Death Spirals.
Exhaustion is not a good mechanic. In fact, Risk/Reward mechanics as presented... are also not good mechanics.

Look, as DMs, we love conflict and adversity. It's drama. It's conflict. It looks really good in the book we're writing in our heads moments before the first player decides it's time to spend ten minutes harassing a squirrel.

But the reality is this is a game of math and very limited math at that. a mechanical penalty means drastically increased failure. And exhaustion not only imposes mechanical penalties, but just straight up kills characters for having it. Risk/Reward mechanics is basically just gambling on making your character just plain worse.

Annnnd we're specifically saddling the martial classes with making themselves worse to try to do things while casters just don't. They get to use resources with the only onerous limits put on them being the DM looking s/mad at them when they has a Tiny Hut, thus eliminating annoying and time-wasting random encounters forever.

Which is sort of hilarious when in certain pop culture, it's the mage that's supposed to be stabbing themselves and paying in their own blood for power.

 

[Micah Sweet]

My answer to that is that pacing yourself and conserving your endurance for the big moments are fundamentally things people do in the real world - and those are resource conservation. And therefore excluding what real world athletes do just because fictional wizards also do it is putting the cart before the horse.

That said I'm with you. Risk/reward is much more interesting than resource conservation and not having all fighter maneuver abilities all the time because you need opportunities is also good. (This is why earlier, I think in this thread, Tide of Iron and Sweeping Blow - both of which are situationally useful and change how you behave). I don't think that resource management should be off the table - but I do think that there are better choices.

The issue to me is, the world isn't making the decision about when those opportunities come up. The PC is, after which the narrative is manipulated to make that retroactively true.

I'd prefer a straight stamina mechanic that can be used for all techniques, and when it runs out you're just too tired to keep up with the fancy stuff.

Kinda like...what Level Up does.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The issue to me is, the world isn't making the decision about when those opportunities come up. The PC is, after which the narrative is manipulated to make that retroactively true.

Are they? Or are they under one specific model.

This is one reason I like the Crusader from the Bo9S; which of your advanced maneuvers you have at any one time is random. You have cards and you get either a new hand or get one of the unused cards each turn until the deck drops to one when you reshuffle.

I really dislike the way it's done in 13th Age - when you roll and based on that roll see which attack you did. But this is another option. There are plenty of others.

I'd prefer a straight stamina mechanic that can be used for all techniques, and when it runs out you're just too tired to keep up with the fancy stuff.

Kinda like...what Level Up does.

In other words the way 5e casters do it? (Other than you occasionally burn more than 1 Ki point/Stamina point at once) And that has the downside that there's no real risk so you end up spamming. It's better than the untiring robots model, granted.