D&D 5E How do you define “mother may I” in relation to D&D 5E?

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I’m going to hone in on 2 possible player reactions to that. 1) I’m going to play and try to find out about what is different in this situation because I know my character doesn’t know everything In the game. 2) Obviously the dm is just out to get me and shoot my character down, he better have a good reason right now or I won’t be back.

I agree having an action not function as expected should mostly be a rare event as the extreme of having nothing work as expected is very bad. IMO there’s alot of room between never say No and always say Yes. And never unexpected vs always unexpected.
I think that fail forward/success with setback covers a lot of "unexpected things happening" and "not working out just like the player intended." I can say yes a lot, say no rarely, and have rolls that work as the player intends unless he misses the roll by a few points(which triggers fail forward/success with setback).
 

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Sure. But the decision to do that has an impact. If we’ve accomplished anything in this thread, it had seemed to be that MMI as a problem comes from mismatched expectations.

When do folks have mismatched expectations? When the books aren’t explicit about the process of play.

That’s where problematic MMI is born.

We don’t see examples of people sharing their MMI complaints about Initiative. Because Initiative is explicitly described and so everyone’s expectations are in alignment.

It’s when the rules and how to apply them are fuzzier that the issues come up. And that’s because the designers didn’t want to commit to a specific approach.
Perhaps, but as long as the GM picks an option and sticks to it I don't expect it to be a significant problem; it will still be consistent. Granted, it might be good idea to session zero these things. I think the real problem areas are the ones where there is no sufficient amount of advice at all and are just "handle it somehow I guess. 🤷"
 

When do folks have mismatched expectations? When the books aren’t explicit about the process of play.

That’s where problematic MMI is born.
That's where player/DM discussion is born. Once the group discusses it and it reaches resolution, everyone is going to have an explicitly clear view of that process and their expectations will align. The players aren't going to have to keep guessing and guessing about what needs to be done.
 

Sure. But the decision to do that has an impact. If we’ve accomplished anything in this thread, it had seemed to be that MMI as a problem comes from mismatched expectations.

When do folks have mismatched expectations? When the books aren’t explicit about the process of play.

That’s where problematic MMI is born.

I think this really has more to do with individual groups. I mean you can guardrail it in a book and try to prevent it. But ultimately its about the habits of the group, the personalities of the group, etc. For me, I tend not to get frustrated unless its very railroady or the Gm is not really giving our attempts at things consideration. But even then, I'm not that bothered by it. I just try to find people I game well with and game with them. I also try to keep the conversation clear about what we all want. But I don't see that as something I need the book for (in fact I don't think I want too much guidance in that respect because it is very individual how you connect with people and how you establish expectations in a group: formalizing that kind of puts me off).
 

On a side note I do see discussions and disagreements around initiative. Primarily related to the when to roll for it.

It's the internet, there will always be exceptions. My point still stands.


That's why I added "as a problem"! I get your stance, and I don't really disagree with it, but I'm talking about when MMI is a problem. Or if it suits your stance, maybe "the drawbacks of a system that functions on MMI".

Perhaps, but as long as the GM picks an option and sticks to it I don't expect it to be a significant problem; it will still be consistent. Granted, it might be good idea to session zero these things. I think the real problem areas are the ones where there is no sufficient amount of advice at all and are just "handle it somehow I guess. 🤷"

Sure, discussion will help some of this. But you can't talk about all the eventualities ahead of time. My mentioning of the "Role of the Dice" was not to cite it as bad. Just that the 5E texts basically support multiple approaches to play. It can be cited to justify a myriad of techniques, some of which will be in opposition. So for me, a lot of it falls into the "handle it somehow", which I agree with you is problematic, and is only exacerbated by their need for mass appeal.

That's where player/DM discussion is born. Once the group discusses it and it reaches resolution, everyone is going to have an explicitly clear view of that process and their expectations will align. The players aren't going to have to keep guessing and guessing about what needs to be done.

Clearly that's not always true. Even if you address some of these things ahead of time, you're not going to address them all. We wouldn't see all the discussions on these boards that we do if this was the case. That's not to say that discussion can't help... of course it can, but it's not a magic bullet.
 

Clearly that's not always true. Even if you address some of these things ahead of time, you're not going to address them all. We wouldn't see all the discussions on these boards that we do if this was the case. That's not to say that discussion can't help... of course it can, but it's not a magic bullet.
No, of course not. A lot is going to come up during play. One instance on a particular issue, though, isn't Mother May I and after the first time there is a disconnect between the players and DM, they are going to hash it out. Whether they come to a group consensus or the DM simply decides, they will all be on the same page going forward and won't have to ask any longer. If the DM is a jerk about it, he may end up without players.
 

We don’t see examples of people sharing their MMI complaints about Initiative. Because Initiative is explicitly described and so everyone’s expectations are in alignment.

I think if we really get into details there probably are some mother may I or mother may I adjacent complaints around initiative. I have found initiative to be one of the more contentious aspects of RPGs. A lot of people are content to do whatever procedure the book outlines (I am one of them) but you really can run into issues because that structure can go against what people are imagining their character is doing, how they are imaging events unfolding in a fight, etc. I've especially seen this with very orderly initiative systems like D&D. You will have people who want to act out of turn because of how something has been narrated (I can think of a number of times players wanted to strike a monster while it was doing something during its initiative because they are imagining it more like a movie or real life where they feel they'd have an opportunity to interrupt or take some other action. D&D has tried various ways to accommodate some of these desires but at the end of the day it is still based around a turn order. I have no problem with D&D initiative, I like it fine. Just putting this out there because I do think things being codified mechanically doesn't stop these kinds of disagreements or differences of expectations from happening (I would say even more so with D&D because its the game people play, even if they want a slightly different flavor of game).

It’s when the rules and how to apply them are fuzzier that the issues come up. And that’s because the designers didn’t want to commit to a specific approach.
I do agree there is a greater chance of disputes arising where the rules are fuzzy, but I also think you are going to have open spaces in rules systems and it is just a question of where. You can formalize many of these other aspects of play, but at least for me, that creates an issue of detracting from the fluid nature of how I interact with people at the table. I'm not saying my way is best. Just this is always the perpetual debate because people tend to be divided around it naturally (I'd honestly be curious what other sets of preferences, interests, etc line up with these gaming preferences)
 

I think this really has more to do with individual groups. I mean you can guardrail it in a book and try to prevent it. But ultimately its about the habits of the group, the personalities of the group, etc. For me, I tend not to get frustrated unless its very railroady or the Gm is not really giving our attempts at things consideration. But even then, I'm not that bothered by it. I just try to find people I game well with and game with them. I also try to keep the conversation clear about what we all want. But I don't see that as something I need the book for (in fact I don't think I want too much guidance in that respect because it is very individual how you connect with people and how you establish expectations in a group: formalizing that kind of puts me off).

I don't really disagree with you. And I don't want to seem like I'm some kind of anti-GM radical who's always looking for flaws. The whole Rustic Hospitality thing didn't ruin play for me. I continued in that game for months after that, until the campaign ended. Then another one of our group took up GMing a new 5E campaign after that one. I've been enjoying that just fine.

But 5E and many similar games simply have some uncertainty baked in. A lot is up to the GM. Like, an absurd amount. So much so, I'd say, that it's hard to escape the idea of Mother May I... they're the figure of total authority in so much of the game.

I do agree there is a greater chance of disputes arising where the rules are fuzzy, but I also think you are going to have open spaces in rules systems and it is just a question of where. You can formalize many of these other aspects of play, but at least for me, that creates an issue of detracting from the fluid nature of how I interact with people at the table. I'm not saying my way is best. Just this is always the perpetual debate because people tend to be divided around it naturally (I'd honestly be curious what other sets of preferences, interests, etc line up with these gaming preferences)

Sure, I think this is really all I've been saying. To take your idea of open spaces, some games give the GM all the authority there (either by design or by table agreement, or some combo), other games spread those open spaces around so that there is room for player authority or system authority.

I talk a lot about Spire: The City Must Fall. That game gives the players lots of options to determine facts in the game world... beyond just through declaring actions for their characters. And many of these are very obvious (I listed several earlier in this thread). The GM is not the sole authority in this regard.

Now, none of this is to say that one way is better or anything. But the more a game divides authority among the participants and the system, the less likely it will be that you have one avenue of authority. MMI is essentially "all must pass through the GM", right? So if some passes through the players and other processes are enforced by the system through rules and processes, the less likely there is one source of authority.

I mean, it doesn't really seem so contentious.
 

It's the internet, there will always be exceptions. My point still stands.
I liked your post. I said this was a side note. Of course your point still stands. It was never in dispute. (At least by me - it is the internet after all).
 
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It's more like an Elder Scrolls game. "Sure it's only 75% complete and the graphics are terrible, but don't worry, the modding community will fix it for us."
You mean innovative for its time and kept alive by the active community?

Oblivion came out 2006, skyrim came out 2011. Regarded as highly competent for their time.
 

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