D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Micah Sweet]

Yes...and the point is, those are things that can be done here, in our mundane world where fantastical things essentially never happen.

What about a world where fantastical, but not strictly magical, things happen relatively often? What might such diligent training produce?


As I said before: impeding the use of the powerful thing, making it more annoying and/or difficult to use. A technique a lot of players today don't find particularly satisfying, which is the major reason why it isn't used.

It may not be a popular technique, but its still imo the best way to reign in magical power. Until players learn to accept limits and game designers are brave enough to impose them, this problem is going to keep coming up.

 

[Garthanos]

Level up added a maneuver called Horizon Shot, it is perhaps the most mythic I have seen (and so extremely situational)

 

[Micah Sweet]

Thankfully, me and my table of old grog friends play different games. I will wrap up our 2ish years 5e campaign in a couple of months, after that it's Savage Pathfinder and one of the adventure paths, after that it's WFRP4e, after that it's most probably Cthulhu and the Masks campaign - kind of a 5 year plan. And then it may be back to whatever D&D is by then, who knows.

Unfortunately, my group of grog friends broke up when the social keystone of the group passed away. My new group is great, but from a different generation.

 

[Cadence]

The guy demoing it did a move where he rolled and came up firing 3 shots in like 1.5 seconds. He was pointing out that he figured out how to do this without spending the kind of learning time the historic archers he was trying to emulate and they would have been much better and likely been able to do it with stronger bows and various other details he was likely worse than they were. It came off as very melee archery... to me this all this just makes the high end warriors too close to realistic. When I want all of the characters to be legendary and actually mythic at high end game.

That sounds cool. Do you have a link to something similar? (Would be cool to see how aware of the surroundings he seemed, how he was aiming, etc... without having to pepper you with questions). But that's beside the point for me I guess, because...

In any event, Hawkeye could certainly do it, and I am all over having martials get to Hawkeye, Blackwidow, or Cap levels of stuff!

I wonder if the biggest thing holding them back isn't the number of attacks, but how disabling/wounding/one-shottting doesn't work well with the HP system without something like mooks to mow down. (Or some plot armor so that the PCs [and named villains and other heroes] aren't just getting disabled/wounded/one-shotted by their opposite numbers).

 

[Garthanos]

"You need magic to counter magic" is only true because there isn't enough information to do much else.

In 1e there was as part of the description of fireball and lightning both an effect described for physically interrupting the path of the spell, Now if I could only throw my shield in front of it as a reaction. (that would feel pretty cool)

 

[James Gasik]

I could think of much better ways to reign in magical power than "and for this part of our adventure, no magic for you".

Even if I agreed depriving someone of their strengths could be interesting, what does a spellcaster have left if they can't even use cantrips? A Cleric could fight in melee, though not as well as a warrior (and I'm still boggled by the idea that there's this random area where even the Gods have no power). Maybe a Bard could manage. Bladesingers and Hexblades/Pact of the Blade Warlocks are screwed. Pure Wizards and Sorcerers? Wow I guess they can go back to throwing darts.

Oh and you know what would be fantastic? Encounter an enemy immune to non-magical weapons in this "anti-magic zone", in which monsters are just fine thanks. Now nobody can do anything!

Anti-Magic Zones sound more like Anti-Player Zones to me.

The reason why magic users don't have to make die rolls to cast spells is pretty basic- they have a limited supply of spells that are more powerful than a dang crossbow (I'll grant that cantrips get better over time, but that's simply because of monster hit point inflation).

Damage dealing spells are, for the most part, pretty inefficient compared to what Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, and Paladins are doing. Most haven't had their damage increased in a meaningful way since the 80's. Worse, rather than getting better over time, now you have to use higher level spell slots for them.

Just to get 10d6 out of a lightning bolt takes a 5th level spell slot. That's terrible!

Buffs are super nerfed in 5e- most take concentration, and you have better uses for that, so few people are getting buffs, and even Haste has gone from a party buff to something one guy gets, and it has a downside when concentration ends!

So what we're really griping about, are spells that disable enemies and utility spells. Spending one spell slot to disable a group of enemies so it's easier to fight them seems pretty reasonable when you only have so many.

Now the utility stuff, that's where the issues come from, I would think. Especially when it lets the spellcaster affect the narrative in ways a mere skill check cannot.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It may not be a popular technique, but its still imo the best way to reign in magical power. Until players learn to accept limits and game designers are brave enough to impose them, this problem is going to keep coming up.

...if you need spellcasting to continue to be overpowered, sure.

Maybe let magic not be so overpowered? I dunno, seems like it could work.

 

[Garthanos]

I wonder if the biggest thing holding them back isn't the number of attacks,

Well the biggest things are probably not combat at all yes... but being able to run through the battlefield and riposte against every mook who tried to stop you would feel pretty epic.

but how disabling/wounding/one-shottting does 't work well with the HP system without something like mooks to mow down. (Or some plot armor so that the PCs [and named villains and other heroes] aren't just getting disabled/wounded/one-shotted by their opposite numbers).

Both could be handy...

 

[Cadence]

Well the biggest things are probably not combat at all yes... but being able to run through the battlefield and riposte against every mook who tried to stop you would feel pretty epic.

That feels like part of combat? But yes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I could think of much better ways to reign in magical power than "and for this part of our adventure, no magic for you".

Even if I agreed depriving someone of their strengths could be interesting, what does a spellcaster have left if they can't even use cantrips? A Cleric could fight in melee, though not as well as a warrior (and I'm still boggled by the idea that there's this random area where even the Gods have no power). Maybe a Bard could manage. Bladesingers and Hexblades/Pact of the Blade Warlocks are screwed. Pure Wizards and Sorcerers? Wow I guess they can go back to throwing darts.

Oh and you know what would be fantastic? Encounter an enemy immune to non-magical weapons in this "anti-magic zone", in which monsters are just fine thanks. Now nobody can do anything!

Anti-Magic Zones sound more like Anti-Player Zones to me.

The reason why magic users don't have to make die rolls to cast spells is pretty basic- they have a limited supply of spells that are more powerful than a dang crossbow (I'll grant that cantrips get better over time, but that's simply because of monster hit point inflation).

Damage dealing spells are, for the most part, pretty inefficient compared to what Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, and Paladins are doing. Most haven't had their damage increased in a meaningful way since the 80's. Worse, rather than getting better over time, now you have to use higher level spell slots for them.

Just to get 10d6 out of a lightning bolt takes a 5th level spell slot. That's terrible!

Buffs are super nerfed in 5e- most take concentration, and you have better uses for that, so few people are getting buffs, and even Haste has gone from a party buff to something one guy gets, and it has a downside when concentration ends!

So what we're really griping about, are spells that disable enemies and utility spells. Spending one spell slot to disable a group of enemies so it's easier to fight them seems pretty reasonable when you only have so many.

Now the utility stuff, that's where the issues come from, I would think. Especially when it lets the spellcaster affect the narrative in ways a mere skill check cannot.

Maybe the caster can break out the crossbow and daggers for one fight every once in a while. It worked in Blazing Saddles!