Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[humble minion]

Look, they can change whatever they want.

As long as Sturm gets to keep his sweet 'stache.

Does Tika get to keep her big 80s hair though?

 

[eyeheartawk]

Does Tika get to keep her big 80s hair though?

Would it be Dragonlance without her Lita Ford hair, or the many, many man-hugs shared between Tanis and Flint?

 

[Hussar]

Pretty much every draconian aside from the ones that turn to stone and trap weapons are more likely to cause more casualties on your side than the opponents. They're optimized to hose PCs, not fight in a war where things like arrow volleys exist.

Imagine the glorious chain reaction a single sniper can set off picking their targets in a column featuring draconians.

Even a hatchling dragon is worth more than a regiment of draconians unless now they're dragonborn and have actual combat abilities instead of the super power of dying fancy.

And I say this as someone who finds draconians to be one of the cooler ideas of the setting... just not for what they're supposed to be in-universe. These guys are lone assassins, not military units.

That's REALLY not true.

Aurak Draconians had an at will fire blast effect. Kapak's were natural spell casters. Remember, this was back in 1e where monsters almost NEVER had any special abilities. And you didn't get dozens of draconians from an egg, you got HUNDREDS. Instant soldiers perfectly trained. Think about it - they managed to create tens of thousands of soldiers from the good dragon eggs. Looking at the size of the armies in the various modules, there were LOTS (as in as many as the plot required) draconians. Hell, the first module featured endless waves of them.

But, no, a sniper couldn't set off a chain reaction. The only explody draconian was the aurak and they had about as many HP as a good sized giant. 8 HD monsters. Oh, and lets not forget they had mind control powers too.

Did you actually read any of the 1e modules?

 

[TwoSix]

You'd need hundreds of draconians to make that an even trade.

Dragons take years and years to grow to maturity. I don't know if it's specifically stated, but draconians seem to be ready to fight within a few months.

 

[Hussar]

I might be wrong about the hundreds of draconians actually. I think I'm misremembering.

But, there are a few things to keep in mind. Dragons in AD&D were a LOT smaller than in later editions. Like a whole lot smaller. The biggest dragons could ever get was 96 HP. That was an ancient, huge red. That's it. There weren't any bigger dragons. So, an 8 HD aurak, which you did get multiples from a single egg, had 8 HD - an Huge red dragon only had 12 HD. An average had 11 HD and an adult, average red dragon only had about 55 HP.

Put it this way. Khisanth, the biggest black dragon in Krynn, had 64 HP. A party of 9 PC's could, without a lot of difficulty, kill it in a couple of rounds at 5th level.

People really need to keep scale in mind when discussing this stuff.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But, no, a sniper couldn't set off a chain reaction. The only explody draconian was the aurak and they had about as many HP as a good sized giant. 8 HD monsters. Oh, and lets not forget they had mind control powers too.

So the bozak's bones don't explode when they die and the kapak don't become a puddle of formation-decimating acid? Or was that not from the modules cherry-picked to argue? And in-universe is an arrow through the eye not fatal because of game statistics?

And the sivak are, again, better suited to non-battlefied applications. Go in, assault the king, scream for help, become the king when you die, collapse the kingdom.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Agreed. One of the themes I take from the novels and games is that of learning and change, and in a way they never did before.

The workd of Krynn took exactly the wrong lessons from the Cataclysm, so the painful lessons during and after the War are an important part of the growing up of the world. Starting with all those lessons already learnt takes away most of the interesting drama and themes, such as redemption. Redemption not just of people but also or organisations and of nations. If you start off perfect, how can there be any redemption?

Another theme is slavery, and the contrast of how races dealt with it. The metallic dragons were essentially enslaved by means of the capture of their eggs, and they made little to no effort to escape. Draconians were enslaved by their birth, and once given the chance to escape, many eagerly changed their actions and beliefs. Sometimes children learn lessons despite their elders.

Classic Kender, however, can go jump in a lake. Worked well in the books, but in the RPG they are nothing more than permission by the game authors for one player to royally — off everyone else at the table.

My current 2E DL game, our youngest player is playing a great Kender. People often complain about "Bad Kender" players typically means a bad player and/or DM.

In my game the Kender's klepto tendencies are strictly RP. The Kender player will say "I look in my pouches" and the Fighter will say something like "I see my signat ring and take it back." Kender: "You dropped it, you're lucky I found it." or Kender: "I cut the rope." Thief: "I notice the Kender is using my dagger, I take it back after the rope is cut."

Nice. Simple. Fun. Themey.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I might be wrong about the hundreds of draconians actually. I think I'm misremembering.

But, there are a few things to keep in mind. Dragons in AD&D were a LOT smaller than in later editions. Like a whole lot smaller. The biggest dragons could ever get was 96 HP. That was an ancient, huge red. That's it. There weren't any bigger dragons. So, an 8 HD aurak, which you did get multiples from a single egg, had 8 HD - an Huge red dragon only had 12 HD. An average had 11 HD and an adult, average red dragon only had about 55 HP.

Put it this way. Khisanth, the biggest black dragon in Krynn, had 64 HP. A party of 9 PC's could, without a lot of difficulty, kill it in a couple of rounds at 5th level.

People really need to keep scale in mind when discussing this stuff.

And PCs had less HP as well and there wasnt a million ways to heal or be brought back from death.

Last weekend in my 2E game a party of 5 players averaging level 3 got wrecked by a 6HD (30HP) Green Hatchling. Breath Weapon dropped the Cleric/Wiz immediately. Then claw/claw/bite dropped the Ranger and Fighter in 2 rounds. Had it been an older dragon with magic spells. Not to mention not trapped underground and able to fly.... Man...

 

[Faolyn]

I'm pretty sure more non-dead dragons come from dragon eggs.

Maybe a lot of dragon eggs were infertile or a lot of dragon fetuses never developed properly. If you could make a draconian out of one of those eggs (coz magic), you'd get the best of both.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Maybe a lot of dragon eggs were infertile or a lot of dragon fetuses never developed properly. If you could make a draconian out of one of those eggs (coz magic), you'd get the best of both.

I thought the whole point of the way draconians are made is how eeeeevil it is to kill the baby dragon to get footsoldiers.

If they can use non-viable eggs, it sort of takes the edgelord off.