D&D 5E Companion thread to "5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part VI: Fighters)"

[DND_Reborn]

The problem with EK (and Bladesinger really) is it is too fighter, not enough magic-using (as where the Bladesinger is too much Wizard, not enough "fighty").

 

[CleverNickName]

Eh, if y'all say so. I think the EK is just right for a "gish" type character. If I need a little extra flavor or magic power, the spell list or the number of cantrips/spell slots are easy to adjust to my liking. A gish doesn't need to be more complicated than that, imo.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Eh, if y'all say so. I think the EK is just right for a "gish" type character. If I need a little extra flavor or magic power, the spell list or the number of cantrips/spell slots are easy to adjust to my liking. A gish doesn't need to be more complicated than that, imo.

Well, FWIW, I don't think it is far off, just closer to 60/40 instead of 50/50. Personally, I've never bothered changing it because IMO it is "close enough" not to bother.

 

[Undrave]

It cracks me up when people in this thread look at the Eldritch Knight and ask "golly, why didn't WotC make a gish class?" You're literally looking at it.

Yeah but it's not as varied as a proper class. I was just thinking there was enough appeal to sustain a full class from lv 1 to 20 if they had put a little effort into it...

They probably got stuck trying to find a good name for it, that's pretty hard at this point

 

[Ancalagon]

The problem with EK (and Bladesinger really) is it is too fighter, not enough magic-using (as where the Bladesinger is too much Wizard, not enough "fighty").

One thing to remember when doing these types of analysis (and incidentally, I do agree with your conclusion - the EK doesn't have enough magic, bladsinger too much) is that gish use magic to make their swording better, but not the other way around. It's easy to envision a gish sheathing their weapon in fire or some other magical energy to hit harder, but somewhat less so seeing how the gish's sword would make a fireball better.

The "ideal" gish would of course have meaningful magical ways to make themselves tougher (shield, mirror image etc), hit harder (hex, maybe some kind of magical smite, weapon cantrips) and move around the battlefield easier (misty step etc). However, on top of that they should also have a dash of utility magic (a familiar can do a lot, but there is more to it than that), as well as ways to protect themselves from hostile magic and counter it.

 

[CleverNickName]

The "ideal" gish would of course have meaningful magical ways to make themselves tougher (shield, mirror image etc), hit harder (hex, maybe some kind of magical smite, weapon cantrips) and move around the battlefield easier (misty step etc). However, on top of that they should also have a dash of utility magic (a familiar can do a lot, but there is more to it than that), as well as ways to protect themselves from hostile magic and counter it.

This is a pretty decent description of the Hexblade.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

There isn’t actually much reason to be a melee EK over ranged, IMO.

Because what they do best is have a really high AC. And there is no point in having a really high AC unless you are in front getting hit.

Also, you can make a great EK archer by picking up Hunters Mark or Hex, but the lineage and feat that enable that are relatively new to the game, and not everyone is an early-adopter. Fighting Styles in Tasha's are also great for rapier+bow EKs. Quickened Enlarge is also cool, but requires Tasha's and MoM.

What I have seen tried that actually doesn't perform very well is an EK built for melee, but uses spells for ranged. This is where MAD hurts.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

5e is strange that it doesn't have a "proper gish classes"

Neither did Basic, 1st, 2nd, or 3.0 editions. It was only 3.5 and 4e that had gish classes. Those where the "strange" ones.

 

[Ancalagon]

This is a pretty decent description of the Hexblade.

In theory yes. But... I have played a hexblade/fighter MC. When I was getting ready for that game and building the character, I found that making a pure hexblade had some strange results - either you hyperfocused in combat (and were pretty good at it!) but it consumed all your magical resources (cantrips, spells and invocations) - so you had the "attack/defence/mobility" and next to nothing left.

By taking a few levels of fighters (EK!) I gained a bit of "variety magic" and toughness and the PC worked better.

 

[DeviousQuail]

One thing to remember when doing these types of analysis (and incidentally, I do agree with your conclusion - the EK doesn't have enough magic, bladsinger too much) is that gish use magic to make their swording better, but not the other way around. It's easy to envision a gish sheathing their weapon in fire or some other magical energy to hit harder, but somewhat less so seeing how the gish's sword would make a fireball better.

The "ideal" gish would of course have meaningful magical ways to make themselves tougher (shield, mirror image etc), hit harder (hex, maybe some kind of magical smite, weapon cantrips) and move around the battlefield easier (misty step etc). However, on top of that they should also have a dash of utility magic (a familiar can do a lot, but there is more to it than that), as well as ways to protect themselves from hostile magic and counter it.

I think the Psi Warrior (RIP) has a pretty good template for a gish. Replacing the psionic theme and force damage with the EKs theme and elemental damage should do the trick. Plus, it no longer has the stigma of psionics attached so it avoids that whole thing.

Spoiler: Revised Psi with EK theme

• Psionic Power -> Eldritch Power
  • Psionic Energy dice -> Eldritch Energy dice but otherwise acts the same.
  • Protective Field -> Drop the telekinetic descriptor for eldritch or just make it the shield spell.
  • Psionic Strike -> Eldritch Strike and deals choice of fire, cold, lightning, thunder, or acid damage.
  • Telekinetic Movement -> A wizard cantrip and arcana proficiency (religion, nature, or history if already proficient).
• Telekinetic Adept -> Eldritch Adept
  • Psi-Powered Leap -> Misty Step spell with the same recovery.
  • Telekinetic Thrust -> Eldritch Thrust but otherwise acts the same.
  • Another cantrip.
• Guarded Mind -> Eldritch Mind, expend a die and choose one of your elements to be resistant to for an hour (no stacking) and can burn dice to end fear and charm effects on yourself.
  • Or this is where we drop in the use of dispel magic 1/long rest and expend dice for more uses. I like both options.
  • Another cantrip.
• Bulwark of Force -> Elemental Bulwark but otherwise acts the same or instead of cover grants resistance to a chosen element for you and allies.
• Telekinetic Master -> Elemental Bane spell 1/long rest instead of telekinesis with the ability to cast again using a die.

Just a first pass but I think this would do almost everything you envision. Tougher (Protective Field with either option), hit harder (Eldritch Strike, Eldritch Thrust, and Elemental Bane), movement (Misty Step), utility (3 cantrips and a proficiency), and protection from magic (Eldritch Mind with either option and Elemental Bulwark).