D&D 5E Companion thread to "5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part VI: Fighters)"

Doesn't matter which element you go after. Doesn't have to exist in a fantasy world. Even local scarcity would be sufficient to explain the non-discovery of gunpowder.
I just think removing sulfur is quite a bit more sensible than removing potassium nitrate, aka one of the most important fertilizers known to man (a fertilizer we knew about long before we knew what "potassium" or "nitrate" were.) But the digression has probably gone long enough.

Same with 'realism', but only if you're a fighter.
Agreed. It's extremely frustrating. And, worth noting, the so-called "realism" applied to Fighters is almost always of the "expectations of a mildly-out-of-shape affluent American" variety, e.g. feats that would be perfectly achievable for an Olympic athlete are frequently considered totally impossible. Or stuff like Legolas and his archery skills; he's almost always held up as a "beyond-human" example, but literal actual archers IRL can reproduce his rapid-fire precision if they train for it. (We just don't tend to train for that kind of archery anymore, generally favoring either bull's-eye target shooting or "volley" shooting, as opposed to the more Mongol-horse-archer type that does rely on rapid-fire attacks on moving targets.)

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I'm glad that all the actually bad Fighters (looking at you, Champion and Banneret) got removed, but sad that it came down to Poorly-Made Maneuver Man and Actually A Caster, Just Not Very Good At It.
 

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DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I gave you citations.
Pfft. I could give them to you as well, but at this point I'm not replying to your posts ever again--there is absolutely NO point. I'm tired of butting heads with you over and over. I swear it is like you reply to my posts just to annoy me. You always have to be "right" and ignore other people's points--repeating your own ad nauseum.

Good-bye.

I allow them.
I've never met you. 🤷‍♂️

It is a well known fact that firearms appeared alongside iron golems and rings of three wishes.
Whatever. :rolleyes:
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph
That's a pretty good variant. I like that you incorporated unique maneuvers into each subclass.

It could just be me but I was getting a weird formatting error on page 6. The right hand column was pushed almost completely off the screen but only on that page.
I did not make the subclass. That was /u/layhnet on Reddit, who I think is Steve Fidler. In any case, I've used it at my tables since he posted it several years ago. It fixes the few things that I didn't like about the fighter class, but it still plays the same.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Pfft. I could give them to you as well, but at this point I'm not replying to your posts ever again....

Mod Note:
It is entirely your right to disengage from someone who annoys you.

But making a public scene of that? Not constructive, and doesn't come across as particularly mature or thoughtful. Next time, try quietly clicking on "Ignore" and leave it at that.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
So @RoughCoronet0 in the main thread claimed that the battlemaster was the worst fighter subclass.

Now, that is a rather... bold... statement, but without explanation, it's nothing but "an opinion". I'm curious as to why you think it is the worst.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Usually in a Survivor thread, when someone says "the worst" they simply mean "the one I don't like." (Except bards, which everyone agrees are categorically the worst thing in D&D.) Smack-talking and exaggeration are supposed to be part of the fun.

I think the Battle Master is one of the most versatile Fighter classes, and it's one of my favorites. But objectively, most of its schtick is just rolling more dice, and I can see how some folks might want a little more than just "randomized bonus to X." So I prefer the Gunslinger or the Echo Knight over all others, but I can happily settle for Battle Master.
 
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RoughCoronet0

Dragon Lover
So @RoughCoronet0 in the main thread claimed that the battlemaster was the worst fighter subclass.

Now, that is a rather... bold... statement, but without explanation, it's nothing but "an opinion". I'm curious as to why you think it is the worst.
It was 100% my opinion. I just don’t care for it at all as I find it boring and doesn’t evoke any desire to play or create a character using the subclass. I’d much rather play a Psi-Knight or a Gunslinger or a Rune Knight or an Echo Knight.

Grant it I’m also the one who’s least favorite class is Wizard as I also find all their subclasses except maybe the Bladesinger to just be so boring and uninspiring, I’d much rather play a Sorcerer or Warlock.

I have weird opinions, I know. 😉😆
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
So @RoughCoronet0 in the main thread claimed that the battlemaster was the worst fighter subclass.

Now, that is a rather... bold... statement, but without explanation, it's nothing but "an opinion". I'm curious as to why you think it is the worst.
I mean, it shouldn't be a subclass at all since it's the absolute least a fighter should be and still needs and hour's nap between lunges, so technically...

But no, in the current paradigm where somehow 'be a fighter' is a mutually exclusive option for fighter subclasses, it's the best around simply for the fact that it lets a fighter be a fighter.

Psi Knight got robbed though.
 

Psi Knight got robbed though.
I know very little about psionics but my time on this site has taught me that it is a contentious thing. Replace the Psi part of Psi Warrior and it would have done better. The mechanics are pretty good in a void but if you don't think they represent psionics well then how well they work won't matter.
 


CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
It went out first, how is that getting robbed? That's exactly what was supposed to happen, wasn't it? I thought it was the plan all along... :p
Well I don't know about that, but it does help explain why Wizards of the Coast didn't include a Psion class in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, despite all the Unearthed Arcana playtests leading up to it.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Well I don't know about that, but it does help explain why Wizards of the Coast didn't include a Psion class in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, despite all the Unearthed Arcana playtests leading up to it.
As divided as some topics are in DND, I think psionics is one of the worst. Some people want classes and/or races built around it, others want it random for PCs or creatures, still others don't want it at all. And then there is the implementation of it: spell-like, psi-points, etc.

There is just too much dispute on it IMO for it to ever be well accepted by "most" players. 🤷‍♂️

I (for one) don't like the psi-classes in their design, I also prefer psionics (if any) to be a random power (as much a curse as a blessing!), so I was very pleased to Psi Warrior out before my beloved Champion. :D
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
I know very little about psionics but my time on this site has taught me that it is a contentious thing. Replace the Psi part of Psi Warrior and it would have done better. The mechanics are pretty good in a void but if you don't think they represent psionics well then how well they work won't matter.
That is WHY it got robbed, yes.

But no class deserves to be out before the Champion.
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph
Usually in a Survivor thread, when someone says "the worst" they simply mean "the one I don't like." (Except bards, which everyone agrees are categorically the worst thing in D&D.) Smack-talking and exaggeration are supposed to be part of the fun.

I think the Battle Master is one of the most versatile Fighter classes, and it's one of my favorites. But objectively, most of its schtick is just rolling more dice, and I can see how some folks might want a little more than just "randomized bonus to X." So I prefer the Gunslinger or the Echo Knight over all others, but I can happily settle for Battle Master.
One of the improvements I liked in the Variant Fighter is that it also got rid of Superiority dice. Each maneuver has a "Superiority" version of the move, and you can do a limited number of those a day. But the "Superiority" versions are basically improved or slightly modified versions of the core maneuver. It's less dice-rolling.
 

Well I don't know about that, but it does help explain why Wizards of the Coast didn't include a Psion class in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, despite all the Unearthed Arcana playtests leading up to it.
5e has always been the edition designed skittishly, rather than confidently. That's been the case since the middle of the D&D Next playtest, when they came out swinging with the legitimately awesome Sorcerer and Warlock, and when they didn't get absolutely universal acclaim they canned them.

Then we got crappy half-baked versions instead, because they never revisited those classes during the playtest.

And people wonder why I say that the D&D Next playtest wasn't particularly effective and wasted a ton of time...
 

That is WHY it got robbed, yes.

But no class deserves to be out before the Champion.
I could see an argument for maybe one of the abandoned UA options. But yeah. The Champion objectively shouldn't exist. It is bad. It punishes people who like simple mechanics and forces a specific and widely-disliked playstyle just to function semi-normally.

I know DnD_Reborn isn't responding to my messages anymore, but I do genuinely have to wonder, for fans of the Champion, do they like it because of the specific mechanics it has? Or do they like it because it's the subclass trying to be simple? Because if the latter, there are FAR better ways to achieve that.
 


I just think removing sulfur is quite a bit more sensible than removing potassium nitrate, aka one of the most important fertilizers known to man (a fertilizer we knew about long before we knew what "potassium" or "nitrate" were.)
I've seen a lot more characters using guns in D&D than I have seen using phosphate fertilisers!
 


Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
It was 100% my opinion. I just don’t care for it at all as I find it boring and doesn’t evoke any desire to play or create a character using the subclass. I’d much rather play a Psi-Knight or a Gunslinger or a Rune Knight or an Echo Knight.

Grant it I’m also the one who’s least favorite class is Wizard as I also find all their subclasses except maybe the Bladesinger to just be so boring and uninspiring, I’d much rather play a Sorcerer or Warlock.

I have weird opinions, I know. 😉😆
So when you say "uninspiring" - is it because it has no "fluff", no "flavor"?

In a way, I kind of like that feature. A while back I made a swashbuckler (the concept, not the rogue subclass) and played him for about 5 levels - a dex build, melee specialized battlemaster. I had to "inject" the flavor into it (the daring swashbuckler), and because the battlemaster is such a blank slate, it didn't "interfere" with the concept.

However, I can totally see why for some it would be off-putting...
 

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