Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[Mecheon]

He imprisoned and endlessly tortured one of the few good Titans because he disobeyed him once.

He got out eventually! Maybe. In a lost poem we have barely any fragments of. But it was by Hercules from what we know. And then there's another lost play where they reconcile though we, once again, have basically nothing

Thing about ancient Greek stuff is of course is that it was an active religion at the time, so there's a lot we don't have and a lot more than changed over time. See how we have fragments of Medusa, one of the three Gorgons born off of primordial sea gods. And then later the whole human turned into a monster thing, written by Ovid who loved his 'Gods being dicks to mortals' stories and is the very picture of a biased author. But, his is the main stuff that's survived.

or the fact the oldest Minoan stuff doesn't even have Hades, Poseidon seems to fill his role, and is also king of the gods with Zeus just, there.

Considering literally every thing Zeus is notable for doing ever, the idea that he is neutral is 100% the problem.

Zeus is one of the ones I bring out the alternate chart of "Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful horny"

 

[Velderan]

I mean all full casters use the same chart (or a very slight modification for pact magic) so (and I am going by memory books are in storage) no letting black robes cast 9th level spell at level 14 but white not until 20.

it isn't viable as is... there are things that just NEED to be updated, off the top of my head the caster charts

I had completely forgotten about this. White and Red robes in 1E Dragonlance Adventures had access to 9th level at level 15 and Black robes had it at level 13. That was left behind when they updated the setting for 2E. The 2E Tales of the Lance set (which is what I grew up playing so the reason I forgot about the 1E spell charts) gave all wizards the same progression which was a 9th level slot at 18 and a 2nd slot at 20. I don't remember them going back to the 1E approach in 3E but I also don't have the Towers of High Sorcery book so someone who does could chime in. The UA playtest for 5E didn't say anything about spell slots so I'd be really surprised if they snuck that into the final product. They went the route of using backgrounds and feats to let you make your High Sorcery affiliated character so the standard class spell progression stands.

 

[Velderan]

It’s pointless to discuss the Cataclysm because it’s steeped in a topic we can’t discuss and gets into philosophical ideals that again we can’t really discuss.

Anyone pro-Cataclysm as written is handicapped to discuss it.

So we might as well all just agree to disagree.

Besides WotC is more than likely going to change it and/or barely discuss it in the 1/16th of the book they will dedicate to lore.

1/16th? That's more than I expect honestly. I don't expect much beyond what they posted on D&D Beyond in the What is Dragonlance? post from last month. lol

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

He got out eventually! Maybe. In a lost poem we have barely any fragments of. But it was by Hercules from what we know. And then there's another lost play where they reconcile though we, once again, have basically nothing

Yep. I'm aware. My point was that the Greek Gods are bad people.

Thing about ancient Greek stuff is of course is that it was an active religion at the time, so there's a lot we don't have and a lot more than changed over time. See how we have fragments of Medusa, one of the three Gorgons born off of primordial sea gods. And then later the whole human turned into a monster thing, written by Ovid who loved his 'Gods being dicks to mortals' stories and is the very picture of a biased author. But, his is the main stuff that's survived.

or the fact the oldest Minoan stuff doesn't even have Hades, Poseidon seems to fill his role, and is also king of the gods with Zeus just, there.

Ovid let his personal biases influence his tellings of mythology after Augustus banished him from Rome. He was Roman and had a chip on his shoulder. His versions of the myths are probably pretty inaccurate to the original versions of the myths.

And I think you're mixing up the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yep. I'm aware. My point was that the Greek Gods are bad people.

Ovid let his personal biases influence his tellings of mythology after Augustus banished him from Rome. He was Roman and had a chip on his shoulder. His versions of the myths are probably pretty inaccurate to the original versions of the myths.

And I think you're mixing up the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

Nearly every God from the past is bad by modern standards. Just about every civilization too. History isn't intended to only be taken as a morality lesson.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Nearly every God from the past is bad by modern standards. Just about every civilization too. History isn't intended to only be taken as a morality lesson.

But D&D does have a morality system and for some reason insists on organizing the gods with the morality system. D&D worlds that take inspiration from real-world gods and have them intervene in the setting should do one of the following:

1. Not give them objective morality definitions in-setting.
2. Make sure that their actions actually match up with their listed moralities.

Or they could use the more modern version of Clerics and change how divine magic works in Dragonlance (making it so Clerics get their power from devotion/faith instead of it being granted from their gods). If they did that, then the reason why the gods didn't take away the Kingpriest's magic is that they couldn't. They weren't giving him spells, he was getting them from believing in the gods and thinking he was in the right.

There are a ton of different ways to change the Cataclysm to make it less morally problematic. "Real world religions and history are morally problematic" isn't an excuse to make it that way in a setting that labels one-third of the pantheon as objectively good. We cannot change history or past religions. We can change how the fantasy world is presented in the modern day.

(If you aren't familiar with it, I recommend reading up on Exandria's Calamity a bit. It's obvious that Matt Mercer took some inspiration from Dragonlance when making that part of his world. They share a lot in common, and the Calamity is done in a way that fits the modern audience better.)

 

[Hussar]

I believe that the Calamity is Exandria's version of the 4e Dawn War. Scarred Lands has a similar story in it as well.

I do like the idea of powering clerics through faith. That's a neat idea. Like you say, the gods didn't stop the Kingpriest because they couldn't. The Cataclysm shattered everyone's faith in the gods, so, clerics didn't work. Maybe that's where bards step in. A non-divine class of kinda/sorta divine casters. Canonically, there are druids in Dragonlance during the War of the Lance, so, it would actually explain a rather large plot hole from the modules. How could there be this high level druid wandering around when there were no god magic? Maybe druids didn't lose faith?

Good stuff.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I believe that the Calamity is Exandria's version of the 4e Dawn War. Scarred Lands has a similar story in it as well.

Nope. Exandria has a war between the gods and primordials from earlier in its history. The Calamity is a war between the good gods and the evil gods that almost destroyed the world and set back the technology level severely for a thousand years.

I'm not familiar with Scarred Lands. What's that about?

I do like the idea of powering clerics through faith. That's a neat idea. Like you say, the gods didn't stop the Kingpriest because they couldn't.

"Clerics actually get their magic through belief, not from the gods directly" has been a thing in D&D for a while. I don't know if that applies to all Clerics in all worlds, but it has certainly been a part of Eberron, Ravnica, and a few other worlds too.

So, yeah, I think saying "Dragonlance Clerics work like Eberron Clerics, where belief grants magic, not the gods directly" could mostly fix Dragonlance's "Cataclysm Problem". There's still a few other problems with it, but that would at least solve the question of "why didn't the gods just take away the Kingpriest's magic?"

Maybe that's where bards step in. A non-divine class of kinda/sorta divine casters. Canonically, there are druids in Dragonlance during the War of the Lance, so, it would actually explain a rather large plot hole from the modules. How could there be this high level druid wandering around when there were no god magic? Maybe druids didn't lose faith?

Bards and Druids get magic in other ways in 5e. Bards somehow tap into the "Song of Creation" which lets them shape the world the same way that the gods did. Druids just have strong ties to nature spirits (sometimes gods, but not always gods). So if the goal of the Cataclysm is "no healing magic on the world until the War of the Lance", then that wouldn't have worked for Dragonlance in 5e anyway.

(Note: I'm mostly agreeing with you. Just have some minor corrections and want to build on some things you said.)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So, yeah, I think saying "Dragonlance Clerics work like Eberron Clerics, where belief grants magic, not the gods directly" could mostly fix Dragonlance's "Cataclysm Problem". There's still a few other problems with it, but that would at least solve the question of "why didn't the gods just take away the Kingpriest's magic?"

I do wonder if that fixes the cataclysm but hurts the aftermath... why did the faith break? why did it go so long without priests and why or how did the gold discs bring it back...

 

[Alzrius]

I do wonder if that fixes the cataclysm but hurts the aftermath... why did the faith break? why did it go so long without priests and why or how did the gold discs bring it back...

Nitpick: the Disks of Mishakal are platinum, not gold.