D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

[Xamnam]

I'm curious, as a new DM, in what way did the PHB and DMG help you resolve the fact that the players went off book in the adventure?

A non-exhaustive list of things I pulled from the other books that either LMoP didn't include or caused me to run it significantly differently: rules for overland travel outside of just speed, different qualities of light, social interaction rules, how to incorporate factions, what style of play I wanted to focus on and how to emphasize it, inspiration, downtime, treasure hoards, additional magic items, encounter balance, grappling, strongholds. That's what popped out at me skimming through and comparing the LMoP text, the rules it comes with, the PHB, and the DMG.

 

[Imaro]

This is the kind of thing that needs an example. What is a setback? I get it, we get it, but does a new DM? Even a simple list of ideas would be great.....

the trip takes longer than expected
they don't disable the trap 100%, and take only 1 damage
the player still manages to grab the edge of the pit, but scrapes their hands. Disadvantage on melee attacks for 10 mins

stuff like that (I spent zero seconds on that list, it could use improvement, clearly, that isn't the point)

I think there's a point we have to give the DM's some credit. The age of the game is 12+, your average 12 or 13 year old knows what a setback is. I understand guidance but there's also a point of too much/unnecessary handholding.

 

[Imaro]

A non-exhaustive list of things I pulled from the other books that either LMoP didn't include or caused me to run it significantly differently: rules for overland travel outside of just speed, different qualities of light, social interaction rules, how to incorporate factions, what style of play I wanted to focus on and how to emphasize it, inspiration, downtime, treasure hoards, additional magic items, encounter balance, grappling, strongholds. That's what popped out at me skimming through and comparing the LMoP text, the rules it comes with, the PHB, and the DMG.

It's weird because this is the stuff I believe the DMG for beginners proponents are claiming isn't all that useful or should be lessened for other things. Interesting, thanks for answering.

 

[pointofyou]

I think there's a point we have to give the DM's some credit. The age of the game is 12+, you average 12 or 13 year old knows what a setback is. I understand guidance but there's also a point of too much handholding.

I do not think explaining what a setback is in the context of a TRPG is holding anyone's hand.

 

[Imaro]

I do not think explaining what a setback is in the context of a TRPG is holding anyone's hand.

That's what a dictionary is for. Setback is in the vocabulary of most 12-13 year olds... they aren't babies or toddlers... we are basically talking about teenagers here. GIve them some credit... especially if they are expected to read through the corebooks and understand the game...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm a professional educator, are you? Comics are a great way to help reluctant readers. There are some intellectual snobs in the profession who hate them. They are idiots.

Ok, thanks for saying the primary school teacher who actually plays in my D&D group is a "snob" and an "idiot", that's super-classy. He doesn't seem like either to me, but I am aware that in teaching disagreements over approaches can get... er... heated. I've seen two teachers get into it on Facebook and wow, that wasn't pretty.

Which you don't need to know in order to learn how to play.

Arguable at best.

They're presented as if you do, certainly as the DM, and they're poorly taught by the materials.

Completely unnecessary, since a starting DM can (and should) run pre-made adventures with all the encounters already planned out.

There is no need for a DM to ever create content. Creating content and running the game are completely separate skills.

Strongly disagree.

I think that's a horrible attitude that inculcates a reliance on generally poorly-written material. DMs should be encouraged to make their own material ASAP, frankly (so a couple of pre-gen adventures to show how it's done is cool in any RPG). Part of the issue D&D has is that it pushes people to rely on pregen material, because it's so much more effort to make material for D&D than other modern RPGs.

Also absolutely disagree re: "completely separate skills", or rather, put it this way - you cannot be a bad DM and write great adventures for publication. It is not possible. And it's very obvious when bad or mediocre DMs write adventures, because they'll typically fail to account for obvious scenarios, rely on particularly heavy-handed railroading - often in fact relying on the DM railroading the PCs in an unnatural direction - and tend to be extremely fragile, because the writer basically doesn't understand what a DM's job is, and has no "theory of mind" for other DMs.

I think you can be a good DM and not be good at writing adventures, though. I've just seem far too much evidence to the contrary to believe anyone who is a bad/mediocre DM could write good adventures.

So throw away the rules. The only rule that matters is "the DM decides".

I'm not looking for advice, as I think you know, I'm discussing 5E as it actually exists.

D&D is one of the hardest-to-learn modern RPGs, on multiple levels, but that weight is disproportionately put on the DM.

What I'm advocating for is that they can, and should, do better. I'm surprised people seem to be against that.

OTOH I totally agree with you and @Oofta re: baking. I don't think it's a useful analogy or comparison to adventure writing or DMing, because baking is as you implied, essentially a science. Certainly once you know your kitchen/appliances (and assuming those appliances don't have a "creative process" as my wife puts it about our microwave). And it's different to general cooking, too. You follow carefully and precisely with baking, and you get great results, like results people wouldn't believe. Freestyle that and things go south, fast. Whereas with general cooking you often see the reverse, especially as many recipes (esp. stews/chilis/fried stuff etc.) can be altered "on the fly" when you see they're missing something, which is rarely practical in baking.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It's weird because this is the stuff I believe the DMG for beginners proponents are claiming isn't all that useful or should be lessened for other things. Interesting, thanks for answering.

I think this comment indicates you might not really be listening to "DMG for beginners proponents".

Several of those things are specifically useful/important to new DMs - good social interaction guidelines, for example. I'm fairly confident 1D&D will do better there though, at least, based on the playtest.

 

[Zaukrie]

That's what a dictionary is for. Setback is in the vocabulary of most 12-13 year olds... they aren't babies or toddlers... we are basically talking about teenagers here. GIve them some credit... especially if they are expected to read through the corebooks and understand the game...

But I'm not expecting them to even look at the core books to start. That's my point. The core books are way too much to start with. That's why I'd want stuff like that in the starter set. Just a simple table of examples would be much more useful than any NPC backstory.

 

[pointofyou]

That's what a dictionary is for. Setback is in the vocabulary of most 12-13 year olds... they aren't babies or toddlers... we are basically talking about teenagers here. GIve them some credit... especially if they are expected to read through the corebooks and understand the game...

Haven't you been arguing they don't have to read the corebooks to run the game? Is there any explanation of how to apply a setback to a failed roll in the Essentials Kit?

I'm willing to give the teenagers I've encountered who couldn't figure the game out from the published books credit for being reasonably intelligent and motivated and I'm saying they should have access to among other things books that are actually helpful for figuring the game out.

 

[Imaro]

Haven't you been arguing they don't have to read the corebooks to run the game? Is there any explanation of how to apply a setback to a failed roll in the Essentials Kit?

Yes... that's my point. Proponents of the DMG for beginner's expect them to read 200+ pages comprehend it and apply it before running a game. But can't fathom, especially since 5e uses natural language that a teenager would know what a setback is... that's my point.

I'm willing to give the teenagers I've encountered who couldn't figure the game out from the published books credit for being reasonably intelligent and motivated and I'm saying they should have access to among other things books that are actually helpful for figuring the game out.

That answer is helpful it let's a DM know he can rule in two ways on a failure. And assuming one knows what the word setback means... it's not that hard. It's one of the reasons age ranges are called out specifically for games.