D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

[J.Quondam]

One of the challenges of a beginner's set, I think, is that the person running the adventure out of the box might not be interested in DMing... but they don't know that yet, because they haven't played yet. But the game still needs to be fun for that person, so it'll be fun for the other people at the table.

So it's sort of a catch 22. I generally assume aim of a beginner's box is to get someone around a new table to buy into the hobby. Designers should write that starter set so that it teaches basic DMing in a way that doesn't assume the person doing it is necessarily cut out for it, and that (therefore) generates a play experience enjoyable both for that novice DM and for the other people at the table.

Simplifying the rules and gaming concepts is part of that, but so is presenting those rules and concepts in ways understandable by a variety of people who learn things in different ways. Personally, I think examples (in the rules) and short DM tips/sidebars (eg, attached to specific encounters in the sample adventure) are an efficient way to accomplish this. Format is also important, imo, things like using bullet points and diagrams, and chopping down huge walls of text that are easy to misread or glaze over.

 

[Imaro]

I don't think anyone has said that at all, across these recent DMG threads. It's not that the DMG needs to be read before someone can try DMing, it's that the book should be useful to someone learning to DM... as a reference during play and also in between sessions.

Sure, they may begin with one or more of the Starter Sets... but does anyone think running Lost Mines and then Icespire Peak is all a person needs to do to become a decent DM?

I think "proponents of the DMG for beginners" are more "proponents of the DMG for everyone, including beginners".

And we had a beginner DM in this thread who read it and used it when they ran the starter set. So I guess my question is where is the idea coming from that it's not? Reorganization, maybe some clarity sure but claiming it's not useful for both is a bit of a stretch...

Adding a list of suggestions is pretty basic teaching. Your argument against it seems to be that people can teach themselves?

No my argument is moreso against the continuous cries of well that's not enough... then what is? And how does that affect page count, cost and usefulness of the book to all?

There are many experienced gamers who on this very site will show they do not know what things like fail forward or success with cost mean, or what they do for a game. I don't see why the books shouldn't educate people.

You seem very focused on people understanding what the definition of "setback" is, but that's not the issue. It's more what constitutes a reasonable setback given the circumstances of play.

No it's about defining what is enough to teach someone the game. There can always be more, things can always be more granular, there can always be more examples... but what's enough and again how does that impact the product if it's for 2 different audiences? I've asked this numerous times and have yet to see an answer. IMO the starter sets (Essentials specifically) provide enough to teach one the basics of the rules, allowing up to 5th level as well as some fundamental advice on running the game at a cost of under $20 on Amazon.

 

[J.Quondam]

It would be really cool if the Introduction, the very beginning of the DMG, the VERY FIRST WORDS A READER ENCOUNTERS, had something like this:


IT'S GOOD TO BE THE DUNGEON MASTER! NOT ONLY do you get to tell fantastic stories about heroes, villains, monsters, and magic, but you also get to create the world in which these stories live. Whether you're running a D&D game already or you think it's something you want to try, this book is for you.
The Dungeon Master's Guide assumes that you know the basics of how to play the D&D tabletop roleplaying game. If you haven't played before, the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Starter Set is a great starting point for new players and DMs.

Oh ... that's the very beginning of the DMG? What have we learned?

....no one reads the DMG.

Heh.

To "boost engagement," they might try selling the DMG in an opaque black bag, with a big red stamp across the cover, "DO NOT READ THIS!"

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

To "boost engagement," they might try selling the DMG in an opaque black bag, with a big red stamp across the cover, "DO NOT READ THIS!"

Zeno: WHEN YOU REMOVED THE DUNGEON MASTER'S GUIDE FROM THE CRADLE, DID YOU READ THE WORDS?????

Achilles: Yeah, basically.

Zeno: DID YOU READ ALL THE WORDS????

Achilles: Look, bud, maybe I didn't read every single tiny word or optional rule, no. But basically I read it all, yeah. You know- the magic items. Enough to argue with people about what's in it.

 

[gorice]

Glancing through LMoP, they explicitly tell you to have the players come up with reasons they're there. I'm sure I could come up with more quotes, but it's not exactly a high bar to say that if people want to play in a game they're going to enjoy it more if they buy into it.

Sure, but, for example: what if my group has bought into the adventure hook, but come up with a solution to a problem that undermines the adventure script?

As far as checks, I just disagree. People will figure it out and always have. The few DMs that would truly let a campaign end based on a single dice roll more than once (if then) are probably not going to pay attention to not do that in the first place.

Sure, but then we're back at the Tower of Babel. Different solutions can imply very different outcomes, and new DMs aren't equipped to understand that.

From the Essentials Kit rulebook pg. 29
"If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success. Otherwise, its a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress towards the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM."

It's up to the DM, if it's something that will stall the game they can make progress with a DM determined setback. If not the DM can choose to rule no progress at all if they desire.

I think the most important question here is actually when to impose a setback versus a simple failure.

 

[Composer99]

It would be really cool if the Introduction, the very beginning of the DMG, the VERY FIRST WORDS A READER ENCOUNTERS, had something like this:


IT'S GOOD TO BE THE DUNGEON MASTER! NOT ONLY do you get to tell fantastic stories about heroes, villains, monsters, and magic, but you also get to create the world in which these stories live. Whether you're running a D&D game already or you think it's something you want to try, this book is for you.
The Dungeon Master's Guide assumes that you know the basics of how to play the D&D tabletop roleplaying game. If you haven't played before, the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Starter Set is a great starting point for new players and DMs.

Oh ... that's the very beginning of the DMG? What have we learned?

....no one reads the DMG.

Heh.

You'll notice that I wrote that the DMG ought to be clear about its purpose. I did not go on to complain that it wasn't.

I realise that "no one reads the DMG!" is your ongoing jest, but it would be helpful if you were to refrain from replying to things that aren't actually in the text you're quoting.

 

[hawkeyefan]

And we had a beginner DM in this thread who read it and used it when they ran the starter set. So I guess my question is where is the idea coming from that it's not?

Because it's a big book that's written vaguely.

I mean, you've said you think the Starter Sets are better for new folks, right? That addresses the first point above... the size of the book.

It doesn't do anything for the second.

No my argument is moreso against the continuous cries of well that's not enough... then what is? And how does that affect page count, cost and usefulness of the book to all?

I mean, "just some" would be a good start, no? If the book says to consider applying setbacks, why does it seem so crazy to suggest a few?

I don't think including examples will drastically impact page count or anything else if it's combined with some editing and formatting.

No it's about defining what is enough to teach someone the game. There can always be more, things can always be more granular, there can always be more examples... but what's enough and again how does that impact the product if it's for 2 different audiences? I've asked this numerous times and have yet to see an answer. IMO the starter sets (Essentials specifically) provide enough to teach one the basics of the rules, allowing up to 5th level as well as some fundamental advice on running the game at a cost of under $20 on Amazon.

Unless they're making multiple DMGs, then the book should be useful to DMs of every skill level. A starter set teaching the basics of the rules is not the same as helping a person improve their DMing. That's the difference. You want it to be "starter sets for noobs, and DMG for experienced DMs" and that's just not what it is.

I think a basic grasp of the mechanics is assumed, but otherwise, it's for DMs of any skill level. It actually says exactly that in the opening paragraph.

Simplifying the rules and gaming concepts is part of that, but so is presenting those rules and concepts in ways understandable by a variety of people who learn things in different ways. Personally, I think examples (in the rules) and short DM tips/sidebars (eg, attached to specific encounters in the sample adventure) are an efficient way to accomplish this. Format is also important, imo, things like using bullet points and diagrams, and chopping down huge walls of text that are easy to misread or glaze over.

These are all very good examples, and what I hope to see when the create the new DMG.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You'll notice that I wrote that the DMG ought to be clear about its purpose. I did not go on to complain that it wasn't.

I realise that "no one reads the DMG!" is your ongoing jest, but it would be helpful if you were to refrain from replying to things that aren't actually in the text you're quoting.

First rule of holes, hombre. First rule of holes.

 

[pointofyou]

To "boost engagement," they might try selling the DMG in an opaque black bag, with a big red stamp across the cover, "DO NOT READ THIS!"

This is the reorganization the book needs.

 

[pointofyou]

One of the challenges of a beginner's set, I think, is that the person running the adventure out of the box might not be interested in DMing... but they don't know that yet, because they haven't played yet. But the game still needs to be fun for that person, so it'll be fun for the other people at the table.

So it's sort of a catch 22. I generally assume aim of a beginner's box is to get someone around a new table to buy into the hobby. Designers should write that starter set so that it teaches basic DMing in a way that doesn't assume the person doing it is necessarily cut out for it, and that (therefore) generates a play experience enjoyable both for that novice DM and for the other people at the table.

Simplifying the rules and gaming concepts is part of that, but so is presenting those rules and concepts in ways understandable by a variety of people who learn things in different ways. Personally, I think examples (in the rules) and short DM tips/sidebars (eg, attached to specific encounters in the sample adventure) are an efficient way to accomplish this. Format is also important, imo, things like using bullet points and diagrams, and chopping down huge walls of text that are easy to misread or glaze over.

This is the reorganization the book needs.