Is Immersion Important to You as a Player?

[niklinna]

I don’t think that “writer’s room” is an accurate nor fair assessment of FitD games. There can be the “zoom” you’re talking about, and perhaps in those moments, players aren’t immersed in their characters as you’ve defined it. But that’s far from the only thing that’s happening during the game. There are times where players are making decisions for their characters in a manner that perfectly fits your definition.

Yes, this is exactly what I was getting at in my first post about it. I'm not always immersed playing Blades, but when I am, I am in pretty deep.

And as I’ve been trying to explain, those zoomed out moments can enhance the immersion for those zoomed in moments. I spend the average session of Blades much more in character than out of character.

Yes!

So what you should do is not tell someone else that they’re not experiencing immersion because the game they’re playing doesn’t allow it, but instead you should say that you’ve failed to achieve immersion when playing such games.

 

[niklinna]

Sure I suppose. What I found is the XP made it a great limiter of the game. "Should we do X?" always came down to whether it netted XP or not. If it didn't, they wouldn't engage. "Are we high enough level to do that?" Wont engage unless they think they got enough XP to do it. Eventually, it leads to whats on the character sheet and if its off, then it cant/shouldnt be done type thinking.

That's interesting! I use XP triggers as inspirations for me to take action (or how to take action), not to decide whether I'm going to do something put in front of me. You only get 2 XP max for each trigger anyhow, and two of them are presented in general terms you apply to the choices you made about your character (background and vice/trauma). I find it greatly supports my immersion in character. (Assuming we're still talking about Blades in the Dark...which might not be the case.)

I do recall in my first Blades group, I was a Hound with playbook triggers hunting & violence, and the rest of my crew of Shadows were very much not interested in violence. I could have talked with the GM about changing that trigger, but instead situations went south & deadly often enough that the efficient solution was in fact a bit of violence, so it worked out pretty well!

Not for everyone mind you, but for many a folk I have played with. So, I stopped using it and an entire world opened up to me. YMMV.

Please elaborate! How did this play out?

 

[payn]

Please elaborate! How did this play out?

With XP the players only engaged the game. They wouldn't role play, pursue character interests, follow up on interesting leads, etc... Become a leader in a major city? Is there xp? No, then not doing it. Fork in the road? Which direction do we think will get more XP, not which is more interesting. Going in the direction of more XP. Talk to an NPC? Will it get XP? Will it lead to XP? If no, or effort too great, not doing it. On and on. Once I removed XP, it opened up all options that were previously closed. What is interesting to explore and do, becomes what the players pursue. This is the engagement and immersion I want. Mechanics are under the hood, and not controlling the wheel.

 

[niklinna]

With XP the players only engaged the game. They wouldn't role play, pursue character interests, follow up on interesting leads, etc... Become a leader in a major city? Is there xp? No, then not doing it. Fork in the road? Which direction do we think will get more XP, not which is more interesting. Going in the direction of more XP. Talk to an NPC? Will it get XP? Will it lead to XP? If no, or effort too great, not doing it. On and on. Once I removed XP, it opened up all options that were previously closed. What is interesting to explore and do, becomes what the players pursue. This is the engagement and immersion I want. Mechanics are under the hood, and not controlling the wheel.

Wow, bummer. But, this doesn't sound like Blades in the Dark, is that right?

 

[payn]

Wow, bummer. But, this doesn't sounds like Blades in the Dark, is that right?

This is XP in general. I don't mind a hardcoded bespoke game, but I don't intend to play them in perpetuity like I would a full blown immersive campaign. YMMV.

 

[pemerton]

To be clear, I am saying that the system and playstyle of FitD games is what keeps it from being "immersion." By the definition I gave in the OP, you cannot be immersed in zoomed out writer room mode. They're antithetical.

Two things in reply.

One, you present this as if it's a priori logic, but in fact it's an empirical conjecture (about possible psychological states) and you're making it on what seems to be a pretty thin evidence base.

Two, I don't know anyone who plays FitD or PbtA games in what you call "writes' room" mode, and so I doubt that @niklinna does either. That's not how those games are supposed to be played according to their designers, and everything I've seen @nikilinna post makes me think that the designer's instructions are being followed.

 

[pemerton]

What I found is the XP made it a great limiter of the game. "Should we do X?" always came down to whether it netted XP or not. If it didn't, they wouldn't engage. "Are we high enough level to do that?" Wont engage unless they think they got enough XP to do it. Eventually, it leads to whats on the character sheet and if its off, then it cant/shouldnt be done type thinking.

To me, once again, this just sounds like terrible mechanics (if one is aiming at immersion or inhabitation of character as a goal of play).

EDIT:

With XP the players only engaged the game. They wouldn't role play, pursue character interests, follow up on interesting leads, etc... Become a leader in a major city? Is there xp? No, then not doing it. Fork in the road? Which direction do we think will get more XP, not which is more interesting. Going in the direction of more XP. Talk to an NPC? Will it get XP? Will it lead to XP? If no, or effort too great, not doing it. On and on. Once I removed XP, it opened up all options that were previously closed. What is interesting to explore and do, becomes what the players pursue. This is the engagement and immersion I want. Mechanics are under the hood, and not controlling the wheel.

This post reinforces that you are describing a mechanic that is a bad fit for what you're trying to achieve from your play.

But to me you don't seem to be describing immersion in character, Most of the things you mention - forks in the road, interesting leads, talking to NPCs, things that are interesting to explore - seem more like elements of the fiction introduced by the GM. You seem to be describing a type of immersion in situation or in setting, rather than in character.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think immersion is a complicated conversation. I'm pretty sure we all know it when we feel it, but that's very different than saying that we're all feeling the same thing. Personally, I liken it to the experience of reading when you forget that you're reading words on the page. That's not exactly right, but its close enough for a rough description. I would agree that mechanics, in some cases, are a part of RPGs that interfere, or at least can interfere with 'immersion'. That said, I've played crunchy games where I've gotten the immersion feeling, and light games where I haven't, so I wouldn't argue that it's solely a mechanical weight issue. I suspect that it has to do in large part with the group gaming experience, with having the whole table on the same wavelength so to speak, but that's just personal experience.

If you'll forgive me a simile, I liken the idea of immersion across a session to a rock skipping over water when you throw it from the beach. The rock striking the water are the mechanical moments, and the varying arcs in between are, hopefully, at least somewhat immersive role playing.

 

[payn]

To me, once again, this just sounds like terrible mechanics (if one is aiming at immersion or inhabitation of character as a goal of play).

EDIT:
This post reinforces that you are describing a mechanic that is a bad fit for what you're trying to achieve from your play.

But to me you don't seem to be describing immersion in character, Most of the things you mention - forks in the road, interesting leads, talking to NPCs, things that are interesting to explore - seem more like elements of the fiction introduced by the GM. You seem to be describing a type of immersion in situation or in setting, rather than in character.

True, I suppose I'm looking at it from my GM experience. Whenever you wonder if the character will follow their supposed background, interests, etc.. they will often betray all that in the name of gaining XP.

 

[niklinna]

True, I suppose I'm looking at it from my GM experience. Whenever you wonder if the character will follow their supposed background, interests, etc.. they will often betray all that in the name of gaining XP.

This is why I like that Blades in the Dark explicitly pins gaining XP on following your character's background and interests!