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D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

Millions of people seem to be learning how to play the game just fine. Of course, anything can be improved.

But this thread is supposedly about starter sets and are they good for beginner DMs. I think they are.
I have only seen the inside of the original Starter Set with Lost Mine of Phandelver. It is a fine starter set for people who've played prior editions of the game but it is less accessible or approachable for people who haven't. This is true for all the corebooks for 5e which is why the conversation has drifted so. Like you I think improvement is possible and I hope to see some.
 

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Oofta

Legend
I have only seen the inside of the original Starter Set with Lost Mine of Phandelver. It is a fine starter set for people who've played prior editions of the game but it is less accessible or approachable for people who haven't. This is true for all the corebooks for 5e which is why the conversation has drifted so. Like you I think improvement is possible and I hope to see some.

One improvement I think could be useful would be to set up a single stereotypical combat encounter. Give an example of the combat starting and the first couple of turns in the PHB, DMG and potentially even the MM. The first two just shift perspectives. The PHB would focus on mechanics a bit, the DMG a bit more background on the how to balance encounters and run them with the monster's goals in mind. The MM could theoretically talk about how a couple of different monsters could respond to combat differently and how that would affect things.

But I don't think it needs to be a full blown starter set.
 

One improvement I think could be useful would be to set up a single stereotypical combat encounter. Give an example of the combat starting and the first couple of turns in the PHB, DMG and potentially even the MM. The first two just shift perspectives. The PHB would focus on mechanics a bit, the DMG a bit more background on the how to balance encounters and run them with the monster's goals in mind. The MM could theoretically talk about how a couple of different monsters could respond to combat differently and how that would affect things.

But I don't think it needs to be a full blown starter set.
Those would indeed be improvements to the books that would make them more accessible and approachable from the POV of someone new to the game.
 

pemerton

Legend
To me that quote tells me the guide is primarily about weaving/creating legendary stories instead of a manual on 'how to run the game'.
Given that the purpose of the game is supposed to be precisely weaving/creating legendary stories - at least that's how the Basic PDF puts it - I don't feel the force of the contrast you are drawing here.

On examples in general: Modlvay Basic has examples of adjudicating a reaction roll; of adjudicating a combat; of adjudicating searching for traps, failing and triggering one; of how players declare exploration actions; of how to manage the turn sequence. It also has examples of improvised actions. It also has examples of building a dungeon. Cook/Marsh Expert adds an example of building a wilderness area.

Gygax's DMG has examples of building a dungeon and adjudicating a dungeon exploration; of placing treasure; of thinking about other worlds and planes and adjudicating travel between them; and many others.

The notion that examples of how to adjudicate action resolution, including what "setbacks" might look like, would be out-of-place in the 5e DMG is just too ridiculous to take seriously.
 

Imaro

Legend
Given that the purpose of the game is supposed to be precisely weaving/creating legendary stories - at least that's how the Basic PDF puts it - I don't feel the force of the contrast you are drawing here.

On examples in general: Modlvay Basic has examples of adjudicating a reaction roll; of adjudicating a combat; of adjudicating searching for traps, failing and triggering one; of how players declare exploration actions; of how to manage the turn sequence. It also has examples of improvised actions. It also has examples of building a dungeon. Cook/Marsh Expert adds an example of building a wilderness area.

Gygax's DMG has examples of building a dungeon and adjudicating a dungeon exploration; of placing treasure; of thinking about other worlds and planes and adjudicating travel between them; and many others.

The notion that examples of how to adjudicate action resolution, including what "setbacks" might look like, would be out-of-place in the 5e DMG is just too ridiculous to take seriously.
It wasn't in reference to the DMG but the Essentials Starter set. Just clarifying...Which has a much smaller page count and is trying to stay within the price range of an impulse buy...
 



hawkeyefan

Legend
It wasn't in reference to the DMG but the Essentials Starter set. Just clarifying...Which has a much smaller page count and is trying to stay within the price range of an impulse buy...

So if they couldn’t make space for examples of success with setback in the Essentials Kit… which is the kind of product where you feel it belongs since it’s useful to those learning to DM… then where else would it go?
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
So how are you judging the "average" person?
Every author who writes a book that is intended to teach (amongst whatever other intentions the author may have) must answer this question. Having never written a book of any kind, I cannot give you a productive answer. I lack the experience or training to confidently and comprehensively answer. Seeing as how there are many guides published every year, it seems quite clear that the question has at least one answer (and probably several.)

However, in general, based on what training I have with pedagogy (I am not a teacher, but I have taken some classes in education), I would expect that one would need to collect data on the kinds of questions which come up frequently, the issues that experienced people highlight as problem points they've encountered and wish they had understood sooner, and important baseline information needed for communicating with experienced users. From there, testing and evaluation: have people read it, then practice with them and see what comes out. Iterate at least a couple times.

Does that seem unreasonable?

And what exactly do the 3 corebooks leave our that is essential to playing D&D 5e?
Examples are a major thing. Examples of how the game's content can be adapted to suit distinct ends (e.g. curating races, classes/subclasses, spells, feats, etc. to produce a desired theme or tone.) Examples of how to adjudicate difficult situations and the ways that individual preference and judgment calls can positively and negatively affect the play experience. Examples of how to improve consistency, and how to take effective notes. Examples of how to resolve interpersonal conflicts, build consensus, and acquire and preserve player trust. Examples of the contrasting virtues of effective DMs: flexibility vs firmness, consistency vs context sensitivity, why you should sometimes ignore the dice when you don't like what they say and sometimes need to follow them even when you don't really want to. Discussions of alternate perspectives on how something can be handled or considered, akin to the 13th Age core book with its running developer commentary (which can be incredibly useful!)

Equally important would be tools that actually work reliably and effectively across a broad spectrum of situations. 5e CR is crap and even 5e boosters usually admit it. Consequently the encounter building tools are largely useless, and often worse than just "eyeballing it." Given the importance placed on combat, that's a pretty serious oversight. I'd also like to see rules and advice for magic items (finding, seeking out, buying/selling, crafting, etc.) The extant ones are minimal at best, not exactly high quality, and (IIRC) spread across multiple books. I know that much of this is due to the designers having a massive overreaction to the importance of items in 3e and 4e, but that doesn't make the current situation any better. Finally, a widely cited frustration with 5e is that it falls down in exploration content, despite that explicitly being a "pillar" of the game allegedly as important as social or combat situations. The DMG clearly isn't up to snuff on teaching DMs how to do that well within the context of 5e rules.
 

Imaro

Legend
So if they couldn’t make space for examples of success with setback in the Essentials Kit… which is the kind of product where you feel it belongs since it’s useful to those learning to DM… then where else would it go?
I'm not saying they couldn't. I'm saying I don't feel its necessary... but if I was doing it... it'd be an online document so multiple sources... starter set, DMG, other DM's etc. Could all reference it without added page count, and without duplicaton, but there's this weird pushback in this thread by certain posters who are against online resources and using them to supplement your products claiming it has to be in the books... well again thats great and all but unless we are talking infinite page count and unlimited price point then concessions need to be made and for me just hollering add this, and this, and this without realistically addressing the issues that would arise is what's ridiculous.
 

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